The creator of Dogecoin says all crypto is a scam

scavengerspc

Posts: 1,579   +1,590
TechSpot Elite
Beyond that, I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent response but I would think that this is the parallel that people are using to compare the two.
I think the biggest reason that calling it a Ponzi scheme is so way off is that they out-and-out lie to you. They come through early just to hit them with the crushing blow that the scammers knew was coming all along.

With bitcoin, I bought as many as I wanted, when I wanted to, and sold them when I felt it was right.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 754   +950
I'm not entirely sure about the validity of calling it a Ponzi scheme but there is one thing that it has in common with Ponzi:

The people who get in earliest get the money of the people who get in latest and the people who get in latest lose their shirts.

Beyond that, I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent response but I would think that this is the parallel that people are using to compare the two.
I can definitely understand the sentiment, but it comes with not understanding the technology. Ultimately, everything works the same. The one that bought a Pokemon card in the early days will be better off than the one buying it now. And the one buying it now, will likely be better off than the one buying it in 20 years. There are two things in this world. Things that increase in value over time, and things that decrease in value over time.

If we take Bitcoin as an example, it was designed to have a maximum supply. This is the key point. Because if all you have is 10 apples and 10 dollars, logic would say that every apple is worth one dollar. If you have the capability of increasing the amount of money from 10 dollars to 100 dollars, then logic would say that every apple now costs 10 dollars. That is how wealth is stolen from the people without them knowing. You have the same amount of dollars, but your purchasing power decreases.
With Bitcoin, there will ever be only 21 million in existence. This automatically means that its purchasing power will increase in value over time. If the amount of money is fixed, and adoption increases, its value will inevitably increase. This is why the stock to flow model has been a relatively accurate baseline for the price of Bitcoin. Yes, it both undershoots and overshoots, but it is still following the model. In the long run, the more people adopt Bitcoin, the more its value will increase, naturally. Ultimately, if everyone uses Bitcoin, their purchasing power will never actually decrease.
Right now, the only ones that are actually at a loss with Bitcoin, are the ones that bought after December of 2020. EVERYONE ELSE IS AT A PROFIT RIGHT NOW. You might think that proves your point. But at the moment that the last person buys Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is the base of finances, the wealth of that person might not increase, but, it will still be maintained.

If you take something like Dogecoin, it has no cap in supply. That means that it works the same as fiat, I.e. the dollar, euro etc. That means that at the moment the last person buys Dogecoin, more Dogecoin can still be created, devaluing the purchasing power over time.

Not all crypto is created equal. And yes, there are a lot of scams, rug pulls, chameleons and ponzi schemes in the space. But just because there are phishing emails doesn't mean that email is bad. The same applies to crypto.

But there is an agenda to demonize crypto, because... Well, it basically has the potential to take away the power from the elite and distributes it across the whole planet.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,718   +2,024
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I think the biggest reason that calling it a Ponzi scheme is so way off is that they out-and-out lie to you. They come through early just to hit them with the crushing blow that the scammers knew was coming all along.

With bitcoin, I bought as many as I wanted, when I wanted to, and sold them when I felt it was right.
Well, Bitcoin has been around since the beginning IIRC and is the most stable of the CryptoCurrencies. Perhaps there are others that have lied to people and fleeced them which would make them compare them to Ponzi schemes.

I don't know any of this as fact, I'm just offering a guess that would seem to be possibly one logical reason for this comparison.
 

terzaerian

Posts: 969   +1,416
Ending involvement in crapto does not mean ending study of it. The article clearly states that he has studied it for years.
I've followed Bitcoin since 2010, from 2010 to 2018 I was as hardcore a nocoiner and skeptic as Jackson Palmer is now, though that was as much due to social pressure as anything else.

And that, at the end of the day, is the main thing that sustains skepticism of crypto: social pressure. Because it's an idea whose day has come and all the stupid accusations of being a Ponzi scheme or a fad are not going to even dent it. No surprise that the enemies of ideas like born-again leftists like Palmer and conmen like Trump are opposed to it.

Keep howling into the void.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,718   +2,024
TechSpot Elite
I've followed Bitcoin since 2010, from 2010 to 2018 I was as hardcore a nocoiner and skeptic as Jackson Palmer is now, though that was as much due to social pressure as anything else.

And that, at the end of the day, is the main thing that sustains skepticism of crypto: social pressure. Because it's an idea whose day has come and all the stupid accusations of being a Ponzi scheme or a fad are not going to even dent it. No surprise that the enemies of ideas like born-again leftists like Palmer and conmen like Trump are opposed to it.

Keep howling into the void.
What's a born-again leftist?
 

Thunder6230

Posts: 66   +40
Crypto miners are nothing but facilitators for drug dealers, paedophiles, terrorist funding and any other dregs of society scum you want to name.
I don't want to be rude but how much money is in transit cuz of crimes? Have you ever seen anybody paying drugs by card? :D crime is everywhere but the diff is the crypto is traceable while the cashflow ha no control ...
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
The people who make the rules are the same people who benefit from capitalism. It's unsustainable for normal people, but those who make the rules don't care about normal people. They don't care if you can't afford rent, they don't care if you can't afford food, they got money put aside for welfare and it's such a large number they'll throw it out to shut anyone up, even though it's only pennies for each person who can't afford to live and can't afford to get more education to get out of poverty.
The thing is, when those who do not make as much as the ultra rich cannot afford to pay the ultra rich what they ask for whatever the item they are selling is, then that will be a great equalizer. Their money will be worthless because they will be the only ones to have money.

Either that, or people will rise up against the rich bullies and rebel. Just give it time. Sooner or later, the unsustainable nature of it will come to a head, and there will be a period of equalization. At least as I see it.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
I've followed Bitcoin since 2010, from 2010 to 2018 I was as hardcore a nocoiner and skeptic as Jackson Palmer is now, though that was as much due to social pressure as anything else.

And that, at the end of the day, is the main thing that sustains skepticism of crypto: social pressure. Because it's an idea whose day has come and all the stupid accusations of being a Ponzi scheme or a fad are not going to even dent it. No surprise that the enemies of ideas like born-again leftists like Palmer and conmen like Trump are opposed to it.

Keep howling into the void.
Until it is, if it ever is, widely accepted, it will be, as I see it, an idea that has not found its place - if it ever does; it is your opinion that it is widely accepted. There is a difference between having an opinion and truth.

Yes, I know, you can cite people/companies who accept it as payment, people like Musky and others, and you can cite a few countries that have decided to use it as their legal tender along side other legal tenders, but it is still far from widely accepted, IMO.

I cannot go to virtually any store in my area that I know of and regularly shop at and spend crapto unless it has been converted to US dollars first.

And you and the others here howling into the void about its technology have every right to do so, however, just because it is based in technology does not provide substance to crapto. There have been many things in history that have had their basis in technology and have yet failed. Perhaps an unfair example, but think "The Hindenburg" as only one example.

Yes, there are a few situations out there where people have seen the appropriateness of block-chain technology and have applied it accordingly, however, that, IMO, just goes to say that those people found an appropriate application of the technology. As I see it, those appropriate applications of the technology are very rare for block-chain ATM. So perhaps since the adoption of block-chain itself is so rare, it really does not have a solid place in modern society.

Most people are content to continue using credit cards and other similar means that are arguably much more widely accepted, and offer much more stability, than crapto. I doubt those forms of payment, which, as I understand it, crapto was created because of the unfairness of the transaction fees, are going to be replaced any time soon by crapto. So crapto has not yet widely fulfilled the purpose for which it was created. Perhaps that is because everyone is so focused on it being a goose (or should I say a CPU after consumption of copius amounts of electricity) that lays golden eggs or a means of true alchemy, at least IMO.

IMO, it is more appropriate to call crapto a solution in search of a problem. Typically, those kinds of solutions die out because they never actually find a real problem to solve.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
The kind that talks about criticizing capitalism but who avidly follow and retweet billionaires on twitter and wants to censor everyone else.
I can't speak for others, but I don't follow people like Musky or other billionaires. IMO, they have nothing that would be worth my following them. Heck, I have never even had a "social" media account on twieeter or fakebook for that matter. I've got better things to do with my time. Maybe this represents some aggravation on your part with how their every utterance sends the world of crapto into a frenzy?
 

terzaerian

Posts: 969   +1,416
Until it is, if it ever is, widely accepted
"Widely accepted" is a goalpost that is constantly on the move. The fact I can use BTC and Dogecoin on Newegg and Paypal right now is apparently still not "widely accepted," nor the fact that it is legal tender in El Salvador this year. There is never a point when you will consider it widely accepted because you're irrationally opposed to it and erecting post facto justifications why.
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,929   +6,261
It's the MMO of ponzi schemes. Since there is so many people it plays out differently. If I was to blame anything for the USD value dropping. It would be Wall Street that I blamed. I wouldn't put it passed being the same people involved in crypto.

People without USD (aka: their national currency) can't afford to risk footing the bill with crypto. It's not as bad as going to the casino every day. But it's not far away either. I'll stick with using PayPal. At least I know with PayPal the money I put in will still be there the next day.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
Of course you can't see the drive because you don't have it and neither do I. I had it explained to me once by my mom (who is a retired parole officer with a degree in psychology). She said that it was an irrational psychological condition similar to workaholism or compulsive gambling.
I've personally dealt with addictions and in general, it is well-known that every addiction has a driving force behind it that include various things such as lack of social contact, guilt, and any number of other factor that contribute. Until the addict deals with the base reasons for an addiction, they are not likely to overcome their addictions.
It's like, they have a hole in their soul that they keep trying to fill with money but no matter how much they rake in, they're only happy for a short amount of time. Then they go chasing their fix the way any other addict would. The difference here is that their addiction harms others more than it harms themselves. You can imagine them as homicidal maniacs. They have no morals to speak of and their addiction kills others instead of themselves.
For me, the fact that they are trying to fill their souls with something, at least implicitly if not explicitly, implies a lack of the very same something that they are trying to fill it with.
Yep, they sure are. I have to admit though, it's impossible for me to feel empathy for someone who I know has no empathy of their own.
I agree, it is hard to have empathy for those who appear to have none, expressions of empathy toward them just might be a means for them to understand and adopt empathy into their lives.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,718   +2,024
TechSpot Elite
The kind that talks about criticizing capitalism but who avidly follow and retweet billionaires on twitter and wants to censor everyone else.
Ok, gotcha. I call those people "fake leftists" because real leftists aren't really pleased that billionaires exist because we see them as a symptom of economic disease. You know, now that I think about it, Mr. Spock is a leftist because he clearly ascribes to Bentham's Utilitarianism:
hqdefault.jpg

IIRC, that quote isn't from some ancient philosopher, it originated in Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
"Widely accepted" is a goalpost that is constantly on the move. The fact I can use BTC and Dogecoin on Newegg and Paypal right now is apparently still not "widely accepted," nor the fact that it is legal tender in El Salvador this year. There is never a point when you will consider it widely accepted because you're irrationally opposed to it and erecting post facto justifications why.
It's a co-legal tender in El Salvador. So, you cite three examples and that is widely accepted? How many times that number of places accepting it are places/countries that do not accept it?

Why do you seem so intent on my acceptance of it as "widely accepted"? Honestly, since you profess as an avowed crapto supporter and you know it is unstable, its my opinion that there is fear of it involved in your involvement with it.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 754   +950
Look at the Math - 63900% of "no value" or "nothing" is still "no value" or "nothing."
What makes the value of the US Dollar "real"...?

And something that I don't think you grasp is that money is a technology. It is a technology to solve the problem of transferring value. There is no good way to discern how many chickens a chair is worth for example. So a medium of exchange was invented.

It started very primitively, with rocks etc. Issue? They are not equally beautiful or the same size, anyone can find a rock, fake a rock, break a rock etc.
Then it advanced to metal coins. Issue? Not easily divisible, and, people would slowly grind off the metal to create additional coins.
Then it advanced to paper representing metal coins. Issue? Easy to be copied, and the divisibility problem still remained.
Then it "advanced" into multiple paper copies for the same metal coin, basically solving divisibility. Issue? The ones in control of printing the paper would print too much, and not everyone could get their metal coin back.
Then it developed into paper with literally nothing backing it... The issue of the infinite printing is still there.
And now it has transcended into autonomous digital technology accessible from anywhere that cannot be manipulated. Issue? Unknown.

When you see money as technology, which it actually is, then maybe, you can understand the value of crypto, and especially Bitcoin. Saying it has no value shows a lack of understanding of what value, currencies and money are.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
In El Salvador, one of the supposed ups of having crapto as a legal tender is that it will open the possibility of having a bank account to those who do not already have a bank account. IMO, a bank account that cannot guarantee the value of the deposits of what is now considered the equivalent of cash in El Salvador is a ruze or has been done to make the citizens of El Salvador feel like their leader is addressing their needs.

Just wait until the citizens do open crapto bank accounts and they wake one day and find that the value of their bank account is equivalent to the non-existent bank accounts they have now. Sounds like cause for a revolution to me.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
What makes the value of the US Dollar "real"...?

And something that I don't think you grasp is that money is a technology. It is a technology to solve the problem of transferring value. There is no good way to discern how many chickens a chair is worth for example. So a medium of exchange was invented.
Yet barter still exists and some would still accept chickens for chairs.
It started very primitively, with rocks etc. Issue? They are not equally beautiful or the same size, anyone can find a rock, fake a rock, break a rock etc.
Then it advanced to metal coins. Issue? Not easily divisible, and, people would slowly grind off the metal to create additional coins.
Then it advanced to paper representing metal coins. Issue? Easy to be copied, and the divisibility problem still remained.
Then it "advanced" into multiple paper copies for the same metal coin, basically solving divisibility. Issue? The ones in control of printing the paper would print too much, and not everyone could get their metal coin back.
Then it developed into paper with literally nothing backing it... The issue of the infinite printing is still there.
And now it has transcended into autonomous digital technology accessible from anywhere that cannot be manipulated. Issue? Unknown.
It cannot be manipulated? Talk to Musky about that. šŸ¤£
When you see money as technology, which it actually is, then maybe, you can understand the value of crypto, and especially Bitcoin. Saying it has no value shows a lack of understanding of what value, currencies and money are.
The argument that correlation equals causation is a fallacy. https://getproofed.com/writing-tips/false-cause-fallacy-correlation-not-equal-causation/#:~:text=The false cause fallacy occurs when we wrongly,something is not the same as causing it.
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,929   +6,261
What makes the value of the US Dollar "real"...?
The fact that USD is printed on paper and has an entire economy standing behind it's value. Crypto has yet to be printed and no one is standing behind it to protect it's value. I think you have been told this before by others and continue to ignore.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
The fact that USD is printed on paper and has an entire economy standing behind it's value. Crypto has yet to be printed and no one is standing behind it to protect it's value. I think you have been told this before by others and continue to ignore.
(y) (Y)
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,376   +4,700
What makes the value of the US Dollar "real"...?

And something that I don't think you grasp is that money is a technology. It is a technology to solve the problem of transferring value.
So because crapto is technological gives it its value? Because a Rube Goldberg machine uses technology does that make it valuable, too?
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 754   +950
Yet barter still exists and some would still accept chickens for chairs.
Funny, how you argue that some would accept chicken for chairs, and propagate this as some legit form of exchange, but at the same time, countries and companies adopting and accepting Bitcoin is "not widespread enough".

It cannot be manipulated? Talk to Musky about that. šŸ¤£
Did Musk manipulate the Bitcoin blockchain?

You have zero idea what you're talking about. My statement has literally nothing that implies anything remotely close to correlation equaling causation.

The fact that USD is printed on paper and has an entire economy standing behind it's value. Crypto has yet to be printed and no one is standing behind it to protect it's value. I think you have been told this before by others and continue to ignore.
And you completely ignore the constant rebuttals. So something must be printed for it to have value...? Considering I have not printed your reply, your reply has no value at all.
See how that works?

The economy does not need the USD to operate.

Something does not need to be printable to have value. In fact, the majority of USD has never been actually printed, but are simply digital numbers on a screen. Studies indicate that 92% of the USD is digital.

"No one is standing behind Crypto".
Uhuh... I guess all those miners you all love to whine about both in terms of graphics cards and power consumption don't exist.
All those projects being built don't exist.
And Sam Bankman-Fried doesn't exist. Yeah. Go Google him. I know you don't know him. Just to give you an idea....;

So because crapto is technological gives it its value? Because a Rube Goldberg machine uses technology does that make it valuable, too?
That is not what I said. I said that all money is technology. And just like technology evolves, so does money, and Bitcoin/Crypto are the latest most advanced forms of money. And if you actually read my posts, you would have noticed I explained how Bitcoin is sound money and DogeCoin is :poop:. So not all crypto is good money, and not all crypto is worthless.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,718   +2,024
TechSpot Elite
It's a co-legal tender in El Salvador. So, you cite three examples and that is widely accepted? How many times that number of places accepting it are places/countries that do not accept it?

Why do you seem so intent on my acceptance of it as "widely accepted"? Honestly, since you profess as an avowed crapto supporter and you know it is unstable, its my opinion that there is fear of it involved in your involvement with it.
Well he cited only three, that is true but... PayPal is an international payment method that is accepted by major vendors all over the world. If PayPal is willing to convert crypto-coins into hard currency then I would have to agree with Terzaerian that calling it "widely-accepted" is accurate. It's widely-accepted because PayPal is widely-accepted. If it weren't for PayPal, I'd agree with you.
 
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