Toyota targets 2027 launch for first EV with all-solid-state battery technology

[Bluescreendeath]

No offense, but lots of people seem to forget that EVs also require expensive charging stations. I live in a block of flats and personal station is no option, and commercial stations are few and more expensive per kilometer (or mile, if You prefer) than petrol.
This green revolution is a scam. We would be better off if We invested in synthetic and alcohol fuels - minimum change to cars and infrastructure. How World decided to go with batteries is beyond Me.

The synthetic and alcohol fuel industry in the USA is giant, decades long running scam. Billions and billions of taxpayer subsidies go to subsidize farmers into overproducing maize-corn that is then sent to the subsidized fuel industry in an inefficient process to create alcohol/ethanol for fuel, which the govt then mandates has to be mixed with gasoline (which decreases fuel efficiency and degrades engines via moisture). Corn to alcohol conversion is also an extremely inefficient process, as sugar cane and switch grass are far better crops to convert into alcohol (which is why many other countries use those crops instead).

Historically, the corn industry have lobbied against and destroy the sugar industry (so there is resistance to growing sugar cane).

The corn to ethanol industry as it is now is a giant racket pushing outdated crops & technology (at best) and is paid to be inefficient for by reckless taxpayer subsidies.

The USA need to break free from their grip before it can have a competitive and innovative synthetic fuel industry.

 

[Bluescreendeath]

Great for You. Majority of city dwellers around the World don't have access to a private parking spot when They could setup Their own charger. Which means, charging EV cheaper will probably never be viable for most. Also You confused $2miilion petrol station that serves thousand of cars a day, every day, with personal charging station at Your home, thats serves only You during whole night. You seems to come here to rage-bait people.

TBF, the solution to city transit has always been better public transit rather than more infrastructure for cars. Elon Musk trying to advocate EV cars as a green solution and competitor to public transit was a bad idea.

There needs to be faster and more numerous public EV charging stations for it to be viable in cities.

On the flipside, if cachy's numbers are correct, then the personal home charging station being 1000x-2000x cheaper would balance out with a gas station serving a thousand times more customers.

If he is saying Lvl 1 EV residential chargers are $300-600, and level 2 EV chargers are $750-$2600, and gas stations cost 2-4 million, then that balances out in terms of cost per car served. Assuming a gas station serves 1,000 cars a day, then $2mil-4mil means it costs $2000-$4000 of the investment goes into serving 1 car a day.

If we assume personal EV chargers that serve 1 car a day (your own car) cost about $1000-$2000 each, that is a $1000-$2000 investment that goes into serving 1 car a day.

That said, EVs are still way too expensive, most charging is too slow, and the electric grid infrastructure doesn't justify the large use of subsidies for EV cars themselves at this time. These Japanese solid state batteries and the supercharging tech coming out of China seems to be paving the way for cheaper and better EVs.

 

[Kena Berhanu]

I think Toyota is copying BMW:
as you can see that in the image it looked like BMW model (I forgot the name)
Toyota is copying BMW!!!!! (x2) I think....Do Not make fun of me.

 

[gamerk2]

These Japanese solid state batteries and the supercharging tech coming out of China seems to be paving the way for cheaper and better EVs.

Which was always going to be the endgame. Liquid Lithium Ion batteries were always going to be the stopgap, with some form of solid-state battery being the long term solution (the exact chemistry that wins TBD). But at this point much of the R&D work is basically done, and it's just a matter of commercializing then scaling up to drive down costs.

And of course, since the US didn't bother doing any of the R&D, all those juicy patents are owned by the usual suspects: Japan and China.

 

[toooooot]

I think Toyota is copying BMW:
as you can see that in the image it looked like BMW model (I forgot the name)
Toyota is copying BMW!!!!! (x2) I think....Do Not make fun of me.

I wish they did. Asian automakers are going through a stage with head and taillights where they sort of leak into long thin lines.
I hate this trend so much. I hate these long lines leaking from the lights.
I wish they copied BMW instead.

 

[Norsiiii]

to pull carbon dioxide from the air and combine it with hydrogen [and oxygen]

That problem was already solved by nature three billion years ago - it's called photosynthesis. Biofuels are by definition 100% carbon neutral, since 100% of the carbon emitted upon burning is just the exact same carbon that was extracted when the plant grew in the first place

 

[Norsiiii]

Chatgtp tells me the cost of building a gas station is $2 million – $4 million.

We already have all the gas stations though

DC Fast Charger (public high-speed) $50,000–$200,000+ [EACH] per station depending on power (kW rating), electrical infrastructure, site work.

Right, so if an existing highway gas station was to try to re-tool as an electric charge station with the capacity to serve the same number of cars per hour/day/unit-of-time, lets look at the figures:

Lets start with the assumptions-
- A moderately busy highway station at its 80th percentile of busyness might have, say, 150 cars per hour filling up.
- Using Toyota's new battery tech, assuming a ~1,000km range probably means an improved battery capacity in the order of 150kWh
- Assuming their ~20m full fast charge time is accurate, and a typical 75% charge would take ~15 minutes

To get the same 150 cars through per hour, they would therefore need 38 super fast chargers running at full bore simultaneously. To charge the said 1,000kWh in 20 minutes (750kWh in 15 minutes) would (at 100% efficiency) be 3 megawatts of electricity draw per charger. 38 x 3MW is about 114MW of electricity required for ONE SINGLE mid sized highway charge station.

When the highway stop has a matching sister-station on the other side of the highway for opposite-direction traffic, the two together need the power equivalent to the entire output of an Ohio Class nuclear submarine's nuclear reactor...

So on top of the cost of 38+ super fast chargers, we need small nuclear reactors for every 2 or 3 stations now too, how much do those cost?

This is farcical

 

[gamerk2]

That problem was already solved by nature three billion years ago - it's called photosynthesis. Biofuels are by definition 100% carbon neutral, since 100% of the carbon emitted upon burning is just the exact same carbon that was extracted when the plant grew in the first place

Photosynthesis is HORRENDOUSLY inefficient; I think somewhere close to 90% of the potential energy is wasted in the process.

 

[gamerk2]

Lets start with the assumptions-
- A moderately busy highway station at its 80th percentile of busyness might have, say, 150 cars per hour filling up.
- Using Toyota's new battery tech, assuming a ~1,000km range probably means an improved battery capacity in the order of 150kWh
- Assuming their ~20m full fast charge time is accurate, and a typical 75% charge would take ~15 minutes

Beware assumptions.

-You start assuming that a station would need to support the same throughput of vehicles; they wouldn't since average range using this battery tech would actually be slightly higher then gas vehicles. Even disregarding that, with other recharge options (including at home/work) stations would be expected to service less vehicles overall.

-Battery capacity based on some of what I read isn't that high, but this is still "wait and see". The exact chemistry matters a ton here.

So on top of the cost of 38+ super fast chargers, we need small nuclear reactors for every 2 or 3 stations now too, how much do those cost?

Its not like these stations have large roofs that could easily fit in solar panels, or large now unused underground spaces that could house a large battery array...oh right, they do do they?

If I were dictator, I'd mandate that every single new/renovated construction have solar generation mandated in their design. We need to go away from centralized power generation and make each building as self sufficient as possible, with the central grid covering peak hours and subpar generation conditions.

 

[Nictron]

With Li-Ion & Sodium-Ion (1/3 of the cost) in the market I am not so sure about Toyota's decision for solid state. Maybe they want the best most reliable longest lasting battery in line with their ethos for cars. I just hope they can manufacture it at a competitive price.

"Toyota plans to keep refining its solid-state battery platform, tackling cost and manufacturability challenges before full-scale production. If progress continues at the current pace, a vehicle powered by solid-state batteries could debut in 2027 or 2028"

 

[Davek]

No offense, but lots of people seem to forget that EVs also require expensive charging stations. I live in a block of flats and personal station is no option, and commercial stations are few and more expensive per kilometer (or mile, if You prefer) than petrol.
This green revolution is a scam. We would be better off if We invested in synthetic and alcohol fuels - minimum change to cars and infrastructure. How World decided to go with batteries is beyond Me.

Thank you. It won't be like now where we all have our own personal gasoline tank and pump at each home.

 

[dalpilot]

In testing, 100% Buthanol/Ethanol fuels, made from agricultural/garbage were driving combustion engines in the end of 20th century. Add 15% of this expensive synthetic fuel (made at night, when energy, preferably nuclear, reaches negative prices) and You end up with E85 that already powers sportcars. like Koenigsegg. I believe would still save lots of expenses and environment.
Plug in alcohol-electric hybrids should be the future. Probably were the future in 2000. But oil was relatively cheap. And then Tesla came with those butique electric cars and people lost their mind.
Greta Thunberg, Elon Musk, George Soros and whoever else was on this scheme is getting a special place in Hell, with extra hot tar.
Change My mind harder.

In testing, 100% Buthanol/Ethanol fuels, made from agricultural/garbage were driving combustion engines in the end of 20th century. Add 15% of this expensive synthetic fuel (made at night, when energy, preferably nuclear, reaches negative prices) and You end up with E85 that already powers sportcars. like Koenigsegg. I believe would still save lots of expenses and environment.
Plug in alcohol-electric hybrids should be the future. Probably were the future in 2000. But oil was relatively cheap. And then Tesla came with those butique electric cars and people lost their mind.
Greta Thunberg, Elon Musk, George Soros and whoever else was on this scheme is getting a special place in Hell, with extra hot tar.
Change My mind harder.

Butanol/Ethanol are terrible fuels, that's why putting 10% ethanol in gasoline cars destroys gas mileage. They don't release enough energy when burned to make them efficient for Internal Combustion Engines. Also, they are solvents so you have to use higher quality (read: expensive) tubing because of the solvent properties - that's why E85 vehicles never took off. Brush up on your Chemistry before you make claims like this. Pure Butanol/Ethanol also vaporize easily so you have that issue also. So, on all fronts using Butanol or Ethanol as a fuel for ICE vehicles is a bad idea. Hydrogen (old H2) is a much better fuel but it has its own problems (like being extremely flammable (that's why it is so hard to separate H2 from H20 - H2 + O2 is very thermodynamic reaction. That is why liquid fueled rockets are still used today - why you combine liquid H2 and Liquid O2 it is still the most efficient way of hurling large amounts of mass a long way. Make sure you know what you're talking about before you throw these kinds of ideas around (you can look up the heats of combustion of each of the types of fuels you mention).

 

[Revolution 11]

With Li-Ion & Sodium-Ion (1/3 of the cost) in the market I am not so sure about Toyota's decision for solid state. Maybe they want the best most reliable longest lasting battery in line with their ethos for cars. I just hope they can manufacture it at a competitive price.

"Toyota plans to keep refining its solid-state battery platform, tackling cost and manufacturability challenges before full-scale production. If progress continues at the current pace, a vehicle powered by solid-state batteries could debut in 2027 or 2028"

That is probably a corporate strategy idea, try to gain supremacy in a newly emerging technology because you are severely behind in the current paradigm.

Toyota dropped the ball on lithium ion batteries and let its hybrid tech languish for over a decade before getting more serious about hybrid vehicles and electrification efforts. They are behind right now, Hyundai's EV platform is handily beating Toyota which was first to hybrids back in 2003.

Solid state batteries on the other hand are brand-new to everyone and Toyota has a opening here to gain a technological and market lead on this. If they wait too long, other competitors will enter the field and the timing advantage will be lost.

 

[Rational]

"first EV with all-solid-state battery"

Really? They've all had vacuum tubes up until now?