AMD says insufficient fluid in Radeon RX 7900 XTX vapor chamber causing overheating, offers...

[midian182]

What just happened? The Radeon RX 7900 XTX saga over its high temperatures and unexpected throttling has come to a conclusion after AMD finally admitted the precise nature of the problem. The company is now offering replacements to anyone who bought one of the affected units, marking a change in policy after it previously refused user RMA requests.

Last month brought reports that some users of Radeon RX 7900 XTX MBA (Made By AMD) reference cards were experiencing hotspot temps of up to 110C. A few people contacted AMD with RMA requests, but the company refused, claiming these were normal junction temperatures. It added that anyone who was experiencing unexpected thermal throttling should contact AMD Support.

Legendary overclocker Roman 'der8auer' Hartung investigated the problem. After ruling out all potential causes, he posited that the RX 7900 XTX MBA's vapor chamber was at fault. Further investigation by Hartung and Igor Wallossek of Igor'sLAB fame narrowed this down to insufficient fluid levels in the chamber, which AMD has now confirmed.

In an interview with PCWorld's Gordon Mah Ung at CES 2023, AMD's Scott Herkelman, Senior Vice President and General Manager at AMD Radeon, addressed the RX 7900 XTX overheating/throttling issue.

Herkelman started by reiterating that only reference and AMD-manufactured Radeon RX 7900 XTX GPUs sold by AMD and its partners are affected, not aftermarket cards featuring custom cooler designs. He then assured users that there were no safety concerns related to the problem, but card performance could be affected. "It all comes down to a small batch of vapor chamber actually have an issue, not enough water and it is a very small percentage […] that's the root cause," Herkelman said.

No word on how many units make up that very small percentage. An email from a system integrator to Wallossek alleged that 4 to 6 batches were affected, which would cover thousands of units. Herkelman said anyone experiencing the problem should call AMD for a replacement unit. AMD has also refuted allegations that it does not have enough units to replace all the faulty models.

Moving onto another subject, Herkelman claimed AMD still had the best-performing graphics card under $900 in the form of the Radeon RX 7900 XT. He also showed a graph showing how it compares to the RTX 4070 Ti, though you should probably check out our own review of Nvidia's card for a more accurate comparison.

Permalink to story.

https://www.techspot.com/news/97191-amd-insufficient-fluid-radeon-rx-7900-xtx-mba.html

 

[Puiu]

As long as they replace them. Kudos to der8auer and his work on investigating this issue.

 

[punctualturn]

There you have it.

Hopefully the anti AMD bias from the media and influencers can find something else to over exaggerate about.

 

[yRaz]

I'm totally on AMD's side on this one but there is one thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This was likely a result of the bean counters cutting costs as much as possible. I suspect that they contracted with a machineshop/factory to make these coolers and they were the cheapest for a reason. As far as machining goes, precision and consistency is kind of the name of the game.

It's not AMD's fault for being provided faulty coolers from a factory but this is a result of "lowest cost at any cost" and now AMD is going to take the heat for someone else's mess up.

I do like how they are handling it professionally. They aren't trying to shift blame to the factory, they are saying "contact us and we'll fix it for you"

 

[Burty117]

There you have it.

Hopefully the anti AMD bias from the media and influencers can find something else to over exaggerate about.

I mean, Nvidia didn't even have an issue, but the media reported their GPU's were catching fire. When the facts are, people weren't plugging their cards in properly. AMD actually had an issue here.

You can claim the media has an Nvidia fetish and are anti AMD but it's just not true, or at least, it's not true the vast majority of the time.

 

[R00sT3R]

Crazy how such a tiny amount of water can make the difference between a fully working card and a faulty one.

 

[Makste]

The hurdles of running a business as big as this one. Stress. But division of labour helps out a bit.

 

[Julnor]

AMD has way too many apologists. When the issue first popped up, AMD refused RMAs and insisted everything was normal. Even AMD pro cult places like r/amd eventually had to concede how bad it was. One of the manufacturers started then asking to collect data, I think it may have been Powercolor but I don't remember which.

Only after enough people complained and it started blowing up on social media did AMD deign to even investigate, when this should have been caught on QC and immediately handled if it somehow made it to sale. It's very anti-consumer and I would never buy off AMD's website after this, and I'd be very, very cautious buying elsewhere too.

You can't even fully trust reviews because how did this not show up from reviewers? AMD also has a history of sneaking bad drivers through, this was no different, yet "fans" want to discount issues while attacking another company.

Nvidia's GPUs are way overpriced but at least they work right. That's why they have the high premium as well as have increased market share. 20 years ago Nvidia barely existed if at all, while AMD and Intel were megacorps. Nvidia grew bigger than them by releasing a superior product at strong pricing, they no longer care about pricing obviously but the product was and still is a good one, EVGA also stated that when leaving the GPU market.

It's not some giant conspiracy, it's not mind control, it's just reality and the market rationally responding to the information and track record it has. Yes crypto inflated things, but that's an ancillary factor, that has now run its course anyway. In the long term a consumer has always been better off with an Intel/Nvidia build. AMD is not doing what it needs to change that, especially on the GPU front. Intel is beginning to stumble so there's an opportunity, Nvidia prices insanely so there's an opportunity, but AMD is not a mom and pop outfit and it keeps shooting itself in the foot. That company needs to look carefully at itself and start cleaning out clearly underperforming executives and departments. Lisa Su saved the company but I'd bet anything a lot of the rot is still there and she didn't get rid of them. New regimes usually do a wholesale restructure for this very reason.

 

[yRaz]

I mean, Nvidia didn't even have an issue, but the media reported their GPU's were catching fire. When the facts are, people weren't plugging their cards in properly. AMD actually had an issue here.

nVidia poorly designed a physical connector that inherently lead itself to not being fully seated properly. Now that we know this it's an easy fix, just try to push a little harder. Fact of the matter is that it still poorly designed and many people, unaware of the issue, may still not fully seat the connector. But the most annoying thing about the 12 pin connector is that no one asked for it, no one needed it and for many years you're likely going to have to use an adapter. I doubt AMD will ever use it and I think many PSUs will continue to ship without it.

It's not like jumping from the 4 pin Molex to PCIe8pin connector. We saw the first major jump in power needs going from the 6800gtx to the 7800GTX leading to the pci-e6 pin on the 8800gtx and ultra. That was 17 years ago. My biggest criticism of the 12 pin isn't that it's physically bad a connector, it is why? What problem does it solve?

 

[Nobina]

There you have it.

Hopefully the anti AMD bias from the media and influencers can find something else to over exaggerate about.

When Nvidia has an issue you are the first to say they are underreporting the severity of the problem. I don't like Nvidia just as much as the next guy but you need to realise you are a part of the problem, AMD fanboy.

 

[Burty117]

nVidia poorly designed a physical connector that inherently lead itself to not being fully seated properly. Now that we know this it's an easy fix, just try to push a little harder. Fact of the matter is that it still poorly designed and many people, unaware of the issue, may still not fully seat the connector.

It's funny, you can tell who has and hasn't used the connector for themselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It inserts easier than the old 8 pin. I've only installed two 4090's so far but damn, it's not rocket science, insert until it latches.

But the most annoying thing about the 12 pin connector is that no one asked for it, no one needed it and for many years you're likely going to have to use an adapter. I doubt AMD will ever use it and I think many PSUs will continue to ship without it.

It was developed by the PCI-SIG for a spec sponsored by Nvidia and Dell. Intel then incorporated it into ATX3.0. Most PSU's out or coming out have a dedicated 12VHPWR connector and cable. It's the next logical step to reducing cable clutter and it's smarter than the old 8 Pin configuration, allowing the GPU to actively talk to the PSU to manage power better, OEM's have been doing this with their own PSU's and motherboards for years now. I'd be surprised if AMD doesn't use the connector in the future, It just makes sense and Intel I'd assume will use it since it's in their own ATX3.0 spec.

It's not like jumping from the 4 pin Molex to PCIe8pin connector. We saw the first major jump in power needs going from the 6800gtx to the 7800GTX leading to the pci-e6 pin on the 8800gtx and ultra. That was 17 years ago. My biggest criticism of the 12 pin isn't that it's physically bad a connector, it is why? What problem does it solve?

It's not even about needing more power, it's about being smarter with the power and reducing the amount of cables needed for high end GPU's. I would counter argue and say the 8 pin is a rubbish connector, more fiddly to remove and requires multiple 8 pin cables to power modern high end graphics cards.

When I unplugged my 1080Ti, I had to unplug two connectors, when plugging in the 4090, only had to plug a single cable in. I'd call that progress.

 

[oasked]

nVidia poorly designed a physical connector

I thought it was designed by PCI-SIG?

https://www.theregister.com/2022/12/02/pcisig_melting_cables_nvidia/

 

[neeyik]

I thought it was designed by PCI-SIG?

https://www.theregister.com/2022/12/02/pcisig_melting_cables_nvidia/

Yes, but Nvidia is part of that consortium. The way PCI-SIG works is that member organizations (of which there are nearly 1000) research and develop new technologies, then submit them to the consortium for additional feedback and guidance. The finer details of the approval process aren't public, but I should imagine that if there is sufficient agreement among the members, the specifications for the new tech can be 'rubber-stamped' by PCI-SIG and then issued under license. For example, PCI Express was primarily developed by Intel, with input from Dell, HP, and IBM. It's the same with the 12VHPWR connector -- mostly developed by Nvidia, with input from the likes of Asus, MSI, etc.

 

[yRaz]

It was developed by the PCI-SIG for a spec sponsored by Nvidia and Dell. Intel then incorporated it into ATX3.0. Most PSU's out or coming out have a dedicated 12VHPWR connector and cable. It's the next logical step to reducing cable clutter and it's smarter than the old 8 Pin configuration, allowing the GPU to actively talk to the PSU to manage power better, OEM's have been doing this with their own PSU's and motherboards for years now. I'd be surprised if AMD doesn't use the connector in the future, It just makes sense and Intel I'd assume will use it since it's in their own ATX3.0 spec.

PCI-sig designed the power specifications for the connector with Intel and Dell, not the connector itself. nVidia is the one who designed the physical connector. The connector itself has a problem with the pins and terminals being too thin and reducing surface area. This increases resistance between the terminals and the pins. That increase in resistance reduces the tolerance for imporperly seated connectors. I don't have an issue with a new power standards(well, sorta, but I'll save that for another tangent). If you want to send 600 watts over 12 wires, I'm fine with that. But shrinking the connector, it's pins and terminals is just a bad idea when trying to increase power delivery.

When used properly I'm sure it works fine, that doesn't change the fact that the connectors design means it inheirently easier to use improperly

 

[Superconductor]

Another Amd bungle.

 

[HardReset]

AMD has way too many apologists. When the issue first popped up, AMD refused RMAs and insisted everything was normal. Even AMD pro cult places like r/amd eventually had to concede how bad it was. One of the manufacturers started then asking to collect data, I think it may have been Powercolor but I don't remember which.

Only after enough people complained and it started blowing up on social media did AMD deign to even investigate, when this should have been caught on QC and immediately handled if it somehow made it to sale. It's very anti-consumer and I would never buy off AMD's website after this, and I'd be very, very cautious buying elsewhere too.

What AMD could do? There was clearly not design flaw or anything like that. There also were lots of working cards out there. Just few people complaining about high temps could easily be user error. Also 110 temps are within margin so just that is not RMA issue.

AMD needed not working card to investigate issue. When you only have working units, it's impossible to say if there are any non-working cards out there and that issues they (possibly) have.

If you are so cautious, stop buying anything.

You can't even fully trust reviews because how did this not show up from reviewers? AMD also has a history of sneaking bad drivers through, this was no different, yet "fans" want to discount issues while attacking another company.

It didn't show on reviews because only small fraction of cards has this problem That fact also makes it very hard to say what is problem.

Nvidia's GPUs are way overpriced but at least they work right. That's why they have the high premium as well as have increased market share. 20 years ago Nvidia barely existed if at all, while AMD and Intel were megacorps. Nvidia grew bigger than them by releasing a superior product at strong pricing, they no longer care about pricing obviously but the product was and still is a good one, EVGA also stated that when leaving the GPU market.

Nvidia market cap at end of 2001 was $6.45 B. AMD market cap end of 2001 was $5.40 B. Intel market cap was $210.40 B.

In other words, Nvidia was slightly bigger than AMD and Intel was around 40 times larger than AMD. Right, market cap is not everything but as usual, Nvidia fans cannot get even basic facts right.

 

[dnous]

So in the end it comes down to a few bad batches. This isn't something new and it sometimes happens (regardless of vendor). If you want an example of intentional bad design just take a look at ASUS' history of "designing" AMD cards.

 

[punctualturn]

I'm totally on AMD's side on this one but there is one thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think that they did what they could given the time that it was reported to the time they admitted anything was kind of short and it included two weeks where everyone or almost everyone was off.
Also, AMD themselves dont sell the GPUs, another company called Digital River does and they were the first ones denying RMA's since they didnt knew anything about the issue and its clearer now that only a percentage is affected, not every single GPU.

I do like how they are handling it professionally. They aren't trying to shift blame to the factory, they are saying "contact us and we'll fix it for you"

Exactly, they needed time to assess the situation.

I mean, Nvidia didn't even have an issue

They did. The connector is flawed. It already demonstrated that it cannot protect itself from user error, which in this case has catastrophic results. If your house was designed the same way, all of your electrical appliances would be dead.

You can claim the media has an Nvidia fetish and are anti AMD but it's just not true,

I dont know about you, but I am sick and tired of the having nvidia GPU's and news shoved down my throat on every single damned video that these influencers create and how when its about AMD, they are always with a negative tone.

When Nvidia has an issue you are the first to say they are underreporting the severity of the problem.

What I say is that the influencers conveniently never bother in pointing out their dirty tactics or how they always give nvidia a free pass.

AMD fanboy.

So your Dear Leader Jensen can avenge you.

So in the end it comes down to a few bad batches. This isn't something new and it sometimes happens (regardless of vendor).

Exactly!

 

[Julnor]

20 years ago is 2002, not 2001.

AMD: $2.22B
NVIDIA: $1.20B

Neither is a mom and pop outfit, but AMD was clearly bigger and NVIDIA built itself up.

You AMD fanboys are ridiculous. Always excuses. Always cherry picking, always trying to spin an argument. Anyone can google and check 3-5 years worth of market caps, and they should. AMD fanboys expect people to just "take their word for it" and throw out a bunch of insults, hoping to mislead stupid people that are impressed with that.

AMD doesn't have to QC or provide CS or a strong product, excuse after excuse while you attack "evil" Nvidia and Intel. The only fanboys I ever see are AMD ones. Always spinning always making excuses.

An AMD fanboy insists everyone else is a fanboy because we call AMD out. We also call out Nvidia and Intel. To an AMD fanboy, AMD is a precious little mom and pop outfit that needs excuses, while Intel and Nvidia are evil megacorps. Intel WAS the biggest but once they spun off their foundaries they dropped off hard, either way ALL THREE ARE MEGACORPS THAT DON'T NEED YOUR DEFENSE. They have an army of marketing for that.

You got the attention you desperately craved, but you sure as hell aren't going to get name dropped or a quoted response. Troll someone else.

 

[yRaz]

You got the attention you desperately craved, but you sure as hell aren't going to get name dropped or a quoted response. Troll someone else.

sounds like you allowed yourself to be trolled. But in the interest of being unbiased, I'd just like to point out that those numbers when AMD had a higher market cap than nVidia were from the days BEFORE AMD had purchased ATi and they were not a GPU maker.

Gaming wasn't as big back then, every console had a custom chip on it and the scale back then just wasn't as big as it is now to bring prices down. It was cheaper back then do design your on ASIC for a console than it was to buy and off the shelf GPU solution. Heck, that's even suggesting there WERE off the shelf solutions back then.

I will not deny I moved over to the AMD side of things but I had very specific reasons for doing so. However, I try to remain unbiased and criticize both sides equally because having an honest discord is what creates better products for everyone. AMD messed up on this cooler design, nVidia messed up on the 12 pin connector. We shouldn't be talking about who f***'d up worse, we should be holding both companies accountable. They both NEED TO BE BETTER. We are getting faulty products at unreasonable prices and that's simply unacceptable.

However, none of that will change if we keep blindly protecting our favorite brands. There is no prize for being a fanboi

 

[Julnor]

We shouldn't be talking about who f***'d up worse, we should be holding both companies accountable. They both NEED TO BE BETTER. We are getting faulty products at unreasonable prices and that's simply unacceptable.

However, none of that will change if we keep blindly protecting our favorite brands. There is no prize for being a fanboi

100% agree. I actually have an AMD GPU right now. I've used AMD CPUs in the past. I will get the best product the market has available at the best price for me. I have zero brand loyalty. And nobody should have any. In the interests of full disclosure, I have always made money trading AMD stock, and it has been VERY good to me. I do not hate AMD.

But I just think they have too many fanboys and their products often have too many issues. To friends and people new to PC gaming, it's usually a safer recommendation for Intel/Nvidia, current prices notwithstanding. Sometimes I recommend AMD, the Ryzen 5000s were a better deal for awhile, and the RX 6000 series was the only decently priced GPUs for awhile and probably still now---but they are mostly still overpriced and AMD is not shy at all about putting things out at high prices, only reducing them with competition---which is what we should all want to see.

I want Intel, Nvidia, AMD to be locked in a desperate three way battle for consumer's spending. I don't want any of them to have a real comfortable lead. That is unfortunately not the case, especially in GPU. Nvidia is by far right now the leader in that sector, and their market share shows it. Excuse making will not change that, both Intel and AMD need to be better period.

 

[punctualturn]

I want Intel, Nvidia, AMD to be locked in a desperate three way battle for consumer's spending.

I agree on that, but in order for that to happen, Intel and Nvidia need to lose both money and market share and that can only happen if people support and buy AMD.

I personally have stated many times why I simply refuse to give money to Intel and nvidia, so AMD "wins" because I simply hate the other options that much more.

 

[HardReset]

20 years ago is 2002, not 2001.

AMD: $2.22B
NVIDIA: $1.20B

Neither is a mom and pop outfit, but AMD was clearly bigger and NVIDIA built itself up.

You AMD fanboys are ridiculous. Always excuses. Always cherry picking, always trying to spin an argument. Anyone can google and check 3-5 years worth of market caps, and they should. AMD fanboys expect people to just "take their word for it" and throw out a bunch of insults, hoping to mislead stupid people that are impressed with that.

You see, market caps fluctuated quite much at that time. Still you put Intel and AMD into same "megacorp" category (Intel around 20-40 times bigger) and over billion dollar market cap "Nvidia barely existed". That's just BS and proves you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about. Pretty typical Nvidia fanboy nonsense.

AMD doesn't have to QC or provide CS or a strong product, excuse after excuse while you attack "evil" Nvidia and Intel. The only fanboys I ever see are AMD ones. Always spinning always making excuses.

AMD didnt make faulty vapor chambers and it was not design flaw but just manufacturing issue. Nvidia on other hand abandoned 8-pin power connector that has proven reliable and designed something that burned many cards. Nvidia messed design, AMD just happened to use cooling system that had some faulty units. Pretty big difference.

An AMD fanboy insists everyone else is a fanboy because we call AMD out. We also call out Nvidia and Intel. To an AMD fanboy, AMD is a precious little mom and pop outfit that needs excuses, while Intel and Nvidia are evil megacorps. Intel WAS the biggest but once they spun off their foundaries they dropped off hard, either way ALL THREE ARE MEGACORPS THAT DON'T NEED YOUR DEFENSE. They have an army of marketing for that.

You got the attention you desperately craved, but you sure as hell aren't going to get name dropped or a quoted response. Troll someone else.

Intel still has around 5 times larger revenue than AMD has and had many years to strenghten position. Nvidia also has much higher revenue than AMD has.

I do expect some quality. Like I said, try to get even basic facts at least somewhat right.

20 years ago Nvidia barely existed if at all, while AMD and Intel were megacorps. Nvidia grew bigger than them by releasing a superior product at strong pricing, they no longer care about pricing obviously but the product was and still is a good one, EVGA also stated that when leaving the GPU market.

That trash don't deserve any better I offered.

 

[Makste]

You can't even fully trust reviews because how did this not show up from reviewers? AMD also has a history of sneaking bad drivers through, this was no different, yet "fans" want to discount issues while attacking another company.

I think that, if none of the reviewers got this problem, then the problem was specific to a few GPUs like AMD is saying.

 

[error1984]

I agree on that, but in order for that to happen, Intel and Nvidia need to lose both money and market share and that can only happen if people support and buy AMD.

I personally have stated many times why I simply refuse to give money to Intel and nvidia, so AMD "wins" because I simply hate the other options that much more.

Just few years ago I used to like and supported AMD. They had very good position to be good among the bad. But after ryzen 5000 release(they started to rise prices of the cpus first,also as soon they were competitive they left low end market ironically the market which kept them alive in dark bulldozer times) and rx 6500 xt(in my opinion the worst release in recent years) I really realized they are as bad as other big tech corporations. Only profit matter and nothing more. Believe me if they had better tech or more likeable position than Intel or Nvidia we would pay dearly for it and they would behave the same. Also, I do strongly believe these tech corp work and set pricing together. Buy whatever is cheaper performance vise and dont let emotions drive your spending habits