AMD's Zen 2 architecture could offer greatly improved IPC

That is ignorant bs. Did you ever here of the 1600 or the 2600X? They are 6 cores. You disable 2 cores in the ccx, but use its entire cache. Your thinking too much inside the box. The 10 core is not only possible it is very likely to happen.
 
I believe that if a 3700X was released and it matched or beat a 9900K then I reckon AMD would charge more than $500 for it. I mean, remember, AMD did originally charge $500 for the 1800X. Companies only reduce prices on products if supply is ahead of demand. They do the opposite and raise prices when demand is ahead of supply.

Well this is a load of crap. The $500 1800x was a niche product (much like a $400+ 8086k) in AMDs lineup as the 1700 and 1700x was available for far less. Also, this was during the 7700k era as another has pointed out. By the time the 8700k was released, R5s and R7s could be had for FAR less.

Make no mention of how AMD launched a 16 core HEDT for $1000 which forced Intel to launch their 10 core at $1000 as opposed to the $1700 6950x. That would not line up with your agenda very well.

Mentioning $500 for the 1800x seems like a very Intel NPC thing to do...
 
Well this is a load of crap. The $500 1800x was a niche product (much like a $400+ 8086k) in AMDs lineup as the 1700 and 1700x was available for far less. Also, this was during the 7700k era as another has pointed out. By the time the 8700k was released, R5s and R7s could be had for FAR less.

Make no mention of how AMD launched a 16 core HEDT for $1000 which forced Intel to launch their 10 core at $1000 as opposed to the $1700 6950x. That would not line up with your agenda very well.

Mentioning $500 for the 1800x seems like a very Intel NPC thing to do...
If AMD sold a chip faster than a 9900K for about what the 9900K cost it would still be the value champion and the type of people who will buy the 9900K would then buy the AMD part. There are enough consumers out there who will pay for the best. Hence why the 2080 ti is currently sold out nearly everywhere or awaiting stock.

I think it’s naive to assume that if AMD sold a part that outperforms a 9900K that it would be anything less than $500.
 
Yeah just like if they sold a chip that outperformed a 7900x, they would not sell it for under $1000.
Oh, wait...
Prepare to be disappointed mate. Last time AMD dominated benchmarks back in the mid 2000s they charged through the nose for their chips. (Well over $1000 for some of the Athlon64-FX parts).

There seems to be this myth amongst misinformed (often newer) members of the PC building community that AMD offer more value. This is not the case. Historically both Intel and AMD ramp up prices as soon as they have the faster part. It’s just AMD haven’t had a faster part for a very long time. Still, that doesn’t stop them. Vega 64, the 1800X and the especially ludicrously priced $800 FX9590 are recent examples of AMD attempting to command the premium price ground.

The reality is that the companies who’s chips aren’t selling will be the ones offering more value in order to get you to buy their chips. If AMD can come up with something that will outperform a 9900K in both single and mulithreaded performance they will cash in on it. It would be poor business practise for them not to.
 
Prepare to be disappointed mate. Last time AMD dominated benchmarks back in the mid 2000s they charged through the nose for their chips. (Well over $1000 for some of the Athlon64-FX parts).

There seems to be this myth amongst misinformed (often newer) members of the PC building community that AMD offer more value. This is not the case. Historically both Intel and AMD ramp up prices as soon as they have the faster part. It’s just AMD haven’t had a faster part for a very long time. Still, that doesn’t stop them. Vega 64, the 1800X and the especially ludicrously priced $800 FX9590 are recent examples of AMD attempting to command the premium price ground.

The reality is that the companies who’s chips aren’t selling will be the ones offering more value in order to get you to buy their chips. If AMD can come up with something that will outperform a 9900K in both single and mulithreaded performance they will cash in on it. It would be poor business practise for them not to.

It's not myth, you just don't understand what "better value" means. When AMD charged $1000 for Athlon64-parts, how much did Intel charge for much worse Pentium 4 parts? Same or more than AMD did.

So while AMD does raise prices, there are very few examples where AMD does not offer better price/quality ratio than Intel does. That is because AMD buyers are more aware of speed and quality whereas Intel could sell tons of hot and slow Prescott CPUs just because they are Intel.
 
It's not myth, you just don't understand what "better value" means. When AMD charged $1000 for Athlon64-parts, how much did Intel charge for much worse Pentium 4 parts? Same or more than AMD did.

So while AMD does raise prices, there are very few examples where AMD does not offer better price/quality ratio than Intel does. That is because AMD buyers are more aware of speed and quality whereas Intel could sell tons of hot and slow Prescott CPUs just because they are Intel.
I stated that Intel and AMD are both the same. And yes Intel charged stupendous amounts for their Pentium 4 EE at the time. However back in the early 2000’s Intels lower tier chips offered better value than AMD did. AMDs FX value in hindsight was worse value than Intels core series at the time with the FX8150 coming in more expensive than a 2500K.

The reality is that being a much smaller company AMD have usually trailed Intel in sales and market share and therefore lowered their prices to try and entice buyers. However whenever demand for AMD products has prevailed their prices have not fallen and actually usually increased.

Oh and AMD buyers and Intel buyers are usually the same people. Very few people stick to just one brand. You seem to have deluded yourself into a fantasy that Intel have thousands of buyers who blindly buy Intel because of the brand name. This is not the case at all.
 
I stated that Intel and AMD are both the same. And yes Intel charged stupendous amounts for their Pentium 4 EE at the time. However back in the early 2000’s Intels lower tier chips offered better value than AMD did. AMDs FX value in hindsight was worse value than Intels core series at the time with the FX8150 coming in more expensive than a 2500K.

Early 2000's Intel didn't offer more value and when Prescott came out, Intel's "value offers" were really bad. Comparing 2500K vs Fx-8150, 2500K is quad core, FX-8150 is octa core. Totally different segments. For certain uses FX-8150 was miles better than 2500K just because it had double amount of cores.

The reality is that being a much smaller company AMD have usually trailed Intel in sales and market share and therefore lowered their prices to try and entice buyers. However whenever demand for AMD products has prevailed their prices have not fallen and actually usually increased.

Oh and AMD buyers and Intel buyers are usually the same people. Very few people stick to just one brand. You seem to have deluded yourself into a fantasy that Intel have thousands of buyers who blindly buy Intel because of the brand name. This is not the case at all.

High prices and value are different things. Even when AMD has raised prices, AMD still had better value.

Yeah, really :joy: Many people buy Intel just because they are too stupid to realize AMD is better choice. Hard facts: We have seen many examples where AMD's retail market share is over 50%. Because retail buyers are usually smartest buyers, they buy what is best choice. Still Intel at those times Intel totally dominated (and still dominates) total market share because stupid laptop and server buyers want Intel, no matter how bad offerings Intel have. That's not fantasy, that's fact.
 
I am sure we can find all kinds of historical examples while forgetting other factors that were happening during those times.

Fact is getting a 6 core for $150, 8 core for $250 and a 16 core for $900 is something we would have not seen from Intel for a VERY long time.

Got to love how Intel required a new mb for CFL for no reason, require Z series boards to overclock, put on garbage stock coolers, and paper launch most of their products.
 
Ok, I have to call out TS here. When Intel puts out an architecture refresh that gets 10-15% IPC gains, you call it a small performance increase. When AMD does it, it suddenly becomes "greatly improved"?

Sorry, I call BS. Be consistent and stop writing sensationalist headlines that are designed to get your audience to buy into a specific viewpoint.
Intel hasn't had a 10% IPC gain since Sandy Bridge over Nahalem (that was around 30% IPC).
Since then its been 1-3% per generation....
Haswell was actually -2% slower than Ivy in certain tasks and +4% faster than Ivy in others...
IPC isn't the same for all tasks, so it really will be workload dependent.
Skylake brought around 4-5% over Haswell, but not in Integer performance.... it was only in certain FP tasks.
Since then we have had 0% gains.

If you look at Intel's claims... they claim 10-15% every single generation (either due to their base clock / boost clock speeds) despite not having actual gains in tasks that people actually do. They abused AVX/AVX2/AVX-512 for these "gains" in the recent years, despite the fact that 85% of applications don't even use AVX, and less than 3% of applications use AVX2 or AVX-512 (outside of specifically updated benchmarks to show these theoretical performance gains in workloads optimized for these instruction extensions).
 
Architecture is transistors though. So it should be a bit of both. You obviously want to add transistors because that is the point of shrinking them smaller. But you have to add them only in the smartest areas to improve IPC and control power consumption.

In a GPU that is highly parallel, well then you can just add a load more of the same processing clusters to make the chip faster. In a CPU which is not parallel then deciding where to best add transistors is probably more difficult.

Everything about chip design is difficult, clearly. You have so many compromises to hit in terms of performance, die size and leakage, temperatures, power consumption, process yields, attainable clockspeeds etc

Do you add more transistors to an existing design? If you do that over successive generations, does the chip end up bloated, lopsided and inefficient? Would it be better to just scrap that and start again with a clean sheet, years of work?

Plenty of example like this, particularly the Pentium 4 where it reached an evolutionary dead end. Intel ended up binning the whole thing and started fresh with Core 2. Good decision. Same with AMD's K10 nonsense.
K10 was actually great.... they should have shrunk it to 32nm like they did with the first gen APU's and made an FX of it....
K10 at 4Ghz was highly competitive with Intel for a long time, but only the best binned Phenom II 1100T's could hit it.
A 32nm SOI process would have made 4.2-4.5 possible in many scenarios and offered really competitive performance to Intel, even at the cost of higher power consumption.
 
If AMD sold a chip faster than a 9900K for about what the 9900K cost it would still be the value champion and the type of people who will buy the 9900K would then buy the AMD part. There are enough consumers out there who will pay for the best. Hence why the 2080 ti is currently sold out nearly everywhere or awaiting stock.

I think it’s naive to assume that if AMD sold a part that outperforms a 9900K that it would be anything less than $500.
I would say the 2080 Ti is more sold out due to very low volume of production...
Less than 1% of the market buys graphics cards like that.
 
I stated that Intel and AMD are both the same. And yes Intel charged stupendous amounts for their Pentium 4 EE at the time. However back in the early 2000’s Intels lower tier chips offered better value than AMD did. AMDs FX value in hindsight was worse value than Intels core series at the time with the FX8150 coming in more expensive than a 2500K.

The reality is that being a much smaller company AMD have usually trailed Intel in sales and market share and therefore lowered their prices to try and entice buyers. However whenever demand for AMD products has prevailed their prices have not fallen and actually usually increased.

Oh and AMD buyers and Intel buyers are usually the same people. Very few people stick to just one brand. You seem to have deluded yourself into a fantasy that Intel have thousands of buyers who blindly buy Intel because of the brand name. This is not the case at all.
What nonsense is this?
Back when I got my Athlon 64 3200+ the price was $180... At the same time the 3.2Ghz P4 (which was around the same performance) was $269 and the Intel motherboard was around $40 more expensive...
The 3200+ was in the middle of stack aswell...
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K8/AMD-Athlon 64 3500+ - ADD3500IAA4CN (ADD3500CNBOX).html

3600+ (near top of product stack) - $232
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Pentium_4/Intel-Pentium 4 662 3.6 GHz - HH80547PG1042MH.html
P4 3.6Ghz (near top of product stack) - $401

Let me know where the prices were ever close....
Only in the top end AMD FX chips were the prices very high, but Intel's inferior P4 chips were actually even more expensive back then...
 
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