A big point of contention with Zen 4 CPUs is that they run very hot. AMD says it's all by design, but how about we throw a basic air cooler to see if the 7600X throttles when under load?
Is AMD Zen 4 Too Hot for a Box Cooler? Ryzen 7600X + Wraith Spire Tested
- Thread starter Steve
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Don't if I'm blind, but are the power and temp graphs missing?
Theinsanegamer
Posts: 5,448 +10,219
The perf loss from running in 65w mode really begs the question why that isnt the STNADARD mode. Is that 1~% really worth all the extra wattage? I'd think itd be a much more impressive launch if a 65 watt part came out and still beat the 200+ watt core i9.
Not blind only the perf graphs are there.
In the HWUB video on youtube I think with eco mode the 7600x ran at 94c with the spire and at 77c with the aio in R23 multi core.
Neatfeatguy
Posts: 1,620 +3,047
I ran my 5900X with a Noctua NH-U9S for a little while. Small little 92mm fan heatsink (setup with a push/pull), it worked pretty well with my setup. The 5900X would flirt with 90C when I had it running long sessions of handbrake, but otherwise with gaming temps stayed in the mid 70s. When funds were available I moved to a H100i AIO cooler and now temps for long sessions on handbrake usually tops out about 78C.
I see no reason why some of these new AMD CPUs (7600/7700) would have issues being ran with a decent air cooler, as long as you have a decent tower with proper air flow.
I see no reason why some of these new AMD CPUs (7600/7700) would have issues being ran with a decent air cooler, as long as you have a decent tower with proper air flow.
takaozo
Posts: 944 +1,479
I would still grind the hell of that IHS until it only it stands out from the loading mechanism like 0.5mm. Just enough for cooler contact. Of course same reduction fom cooler mount height.
I'm sure 1.5-2mm can be safely removed from IHS height and with better heat transfer from IHS to cooler.
In fact I was thinking to do this for the Zen3 I have now, but I will buy a older AM4 cpu for initial tests.
Der Bauer is the only tech guy on YT I trust from now on, the rest had taken the bite from AMD.
"We design it to run at 95C", if that's so maybe someone will run the cpu without cooling. Should have the same perf as with Spire HSF.
Maybe for Zen4+ or Zen5 AMD will put a waterblock instead of an IHS.
I'm sure 1.5-2mm can be safely removed from IHS height and with better heat transfer from IHS to cooler.
In fact I was thinking to do this for the Zen3 I have now, but I will buy a older AM4 cpu for initial tests.
Der Bauer is the only tech guy on YT I trust from now on, the rest had taken the bite from AMD.
"We design it to run at 95C", if that's so maybe someone will run the cpu without cooling. Should have the same perf as with Spire HSF.
Maybe for Zen4+ or Zen5 AMD will put a waterblock instead of an IHS.
My take on this is that the CPU can be configured to run at lower temps with the right cooling. As another commenter asked, why isn't that the default? Personally, unless I am trying to do some overclocking, I don't want to have to mess around with all these settings and potential instability.
While the chip can run at 95C just fine, my concern with an air-cooler is that you're dumping a lot of that heat into the case. At least with an AIO or water cooled system you can exhaust that heat directly out of the case. With an air cooler you'll need to ensure that you have sufficient exhaust fans to pull that heat away from the other components and out of the case. It would be interesting to see what the internal case temps are for various cooling systems.
While the chip can run at 95C just fine, my concern with an air-cooler is that you're dumping a lot of that heat into the case. At least with an AIO or water cooled system you can exhaust that heat directly out of the case. With an air cooler you'll need to ensure that you have sufficient exhaust fans to pull that heat away from the other components and out of the case. It would be interesting to see what the internal case temps are for various cooling systems.
imdarkbreeze
Posts: 87 +74
This has always been the case for all platforms when using air cooling. I don't see this being anything new. Nobody is really planning to run a high end CPU and graphics card and not be running a proper case fan configuration.
Or if they do, then they shouldn't be surprised when they have thermal issues.
bluetooth fairy
Posts: 235 +166
88W is not a lot of heat. There's no problem to exhaust 88W from any decent case. AMD says, 95C is not a problem for their hot chips. The problem is that most monitoring software isn't aware of that such temps are OK now. 95C will lead to the point where fans spin at their maximum rpm. Software and users are main concern. Users should let the chips run hot while adjusting monitoring software to acceptable noise levels. Seems, new AM5 BIOSes should be designed in accordance, at default. Luckily, there's no need to care about prev gen CPUs which were not so hot.
Fastturtle
Posts: 145 +79
That was my first thought about that 95c temp. If it can handle that, can I go full Passive cooling and still keep the performance?
takaozo
Posts: 944 +1,479
The new Zen4 it's designed as a Diesel engine, to run at 95C 
quadibloc
Posts: 423 +275
According to Agner Fog, running a CPU at any temperature above 50 degrees Celsius will shorten its lifespan. I downloaded AMD's tools to put my Ryzen 9 3900X into Eco Mode, but I couldn't find any setting to cause it to slow down as necessary to ensure the temperature goes no higher than 50 degrees C.
Theinsanegamer
Posts: 5,448 +10,219
Based on....what, exactly? Intel CPUs in laptops have been running at 90c+ for a decade now without issue.
This reminds me of the people that said that newer CPUs would all fail of ElectroMagnetic Migration from voltage spikes because the Northwood Pentium 4s did in 2004.
Temperature is not heat. Just because the CPU is running at 95c does not mean that the thermal load it places onto its cooler is higher then before. In Eco mode the 7600x is comparable to a 5600 in power draw, and thus thermal dissipation.
For air cooling the 7600x in eco mode, even the 7950x in eco mode, is no worse then the previous generation.
Theinsanegamer
Posts: 5,448 +10,219
base and boost for the 2 chiplet processors are 170 and 230w, respectively.
Yes, that's been the case, but how many people are running CPUs in the mid-90s? Maybe the current set-up isn't sufficient? And, moving air across the CPU to keep it in that 90 degree range might not be enough to keep other components within their rated temps, if the hot exhaust is flowing over those components. Hence why I think an AIO might be a better solution.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,763 +9,646
If I were to build a system with this proc, I certainly would not use a wraith cooler. Personally, I favor Thermalright coolers.
It doesn't matter that the temperature is, what matters is the heat dissipated (which equals power consumption). If this doesn't make sense, consider gaming on your phone. If you checked you'd find the SoC temp often hits ~90-95C when gaming, yet you don't worry about the phone heating up the house as its only consuming 3-5W of heat at max load. It is the 3-5W of heat that matters, not the die temperature.
If you are worried about overheating VRMs and the like, an air cooler is often better than an AIO because most AIO result in no air flow over the VRMs. If you are worried about heat in general, just do what the review testing did, either select Eco mode, or set your own custom power limit or temp limit.
Mr Majestyk
Posts: 2,058 +1,903
Can we set our own power mode other than just ECO @ 65W. Maybe 85W would be the sweet spot?
Intel is claiming the 13900K @ 65W is just as fast as the 12900K @ 243W and at 100W is 21% faster. I think this gen a lot of people are going to be running lower power limits and only lose a few % performance. I wonder if the Intel's will accept bigger undervolts or just set a desired power level say 150W and you'll still smash Alder Lake. 13700K is looking more promising given they kept the price the same as 12700K.
Intel is claiming the 13900K @ 65W is just as fast as the 12900K @ 243W and at 100W is 21% faster. I think this gen a lot of people are going to be running lower power limits and only lose a few % performance. I wonder if the Intel's will accept bigger undervolts or just set a desired power level say 150W and you'll still smash Alder Lake. 13700K is looking more promising given they kept the price the same as 12700K.
The reason is due to the IHS being thicker to accommodate AM4 coolers. Der Bauer has a good video where he delided I think a 7900x/7950x and noted the thickness of the IHS. As soon as he delided and applied cooling directly to the die, he saw thermal drops of 20+ degrees while running everything at stock settings (voltage, frequency, etc.).
PEnnn
Posts: 1,285 +1,853
"What shocked us was how well the 7600X worked with the Wraith Spire. '
How about starting your tests with a decent air cooler and then going full blast AIO next time??
Not everybody loves to spend a pretty penny on AIOs / deal with leaky tubes sometime down the road.
"it's also important to note that the 95C results shown for Zen 4 CPUs are recorded running stressful all-core workloads and don't apply to any gaming situation.t's also important to note that the 95C results shown for Zen 4 CPUs are recorded running stressful all-core workloads and don't apply to any gaming situation"
AND why do you assume everybody will be running 24/7 things like Blender, Cinebench, etc....and then you start issuing dire warning about temperatures!!
Heck, your own tests showed us now that the lowly Wraith Spire could be enough for many of us!!
How about starting your tests with a decent air cooler and then going full blast AIO next time??
Not everybody loves to spend a pretty penny on AIOs / deal with leaky tubes sometime down the road.
"it's also important to note that the 95C results shown for Zen 4 CPUs are recorded running stressful all-core workloads and don't apply to any gaming situation.t's also important to note that the 95C results shown for Zen 4 CPUs are recorded running stressful all-core workloads and don't apply to any gaming situation"
AND why do you assume everybody will be running 24/7 things like Blender, Cinebench, etc....and then you start issuing dire warning about temperatures!!
Heck, your own tests showed us now that the lowly Wraith Spire could be enough for many of us!!
I agree with all your points, but the reality of modern tech media is that getting your review out on the day the NDA lifts is a business necessity given that most clicks will happen on the day of the review. If they delayed the review by 1-2 days to fit in extra testing (testing with an air cooler and AIO would have doubled the number of test points), then most people would have got their Zen 4 review fix elsewhere, leaving much lower traffic for TechSpot.
I do think though that listing the gaming temps and power consumption would be a good idea and wouldn't require any additional testing. Most temp and power consumption tests are done at 100% CPU utilisation (worst case) but that is often not how people use their systems. Not saying don't measure that as well, but gaming power consumption and temps would give more useful information for the majority of readers.
takaozo
Posts: 944 +1,479
No matter how good thermal conductivity a material has (the IHS) it will fail the energy transfer after a certain thickness is reached and act more like an insulator.
This is why we see the 2-8 seconds thermals rising from 30C to 90C, not enough heat is transfered from die to cold plate.
It's the same issue from Zen1 to Zen4. But Zen 4 has more issues because the extra thickness.
Just bad design, if they made a central square formation from the I/O die and CPU chiplets I'm sure those capacitors would fit under the IHS.
Also keeping AM4 cooler compatibility was pretty wrong done. They could just adjust the bracket height for coolers with 2 point mount.
This would aslo mean all cooler's need to have new brackets.
It was a compromise done for a new design that should never pass the internal QC.
This is why we see the 2-8 seconds thermals rising from 30C to 90C, not enough heat is transfered from die to cold plate.
It's the same issue from Zen1 to Zen4. But Zen 4 has more issues because the extra thickness.
Just bad design, if they made a central square formation from the I/O die and CPU chiplets I'm sure those capacitors would fit under the IHS.
Also keeping AM4 cooler compatibility was pretty wrong done. They could just adjust the bracket height for coolers with 2 point mount.
This would aslo mean all cooler's need to have new brackets.
It was a compromise done for a new design that should never pass the internal QC.
Endymio
Posts: 2,670 +2,701
Eh? This isn't how thermodynamics works. A CPU encased in a theoretical infinite-sized block of copper would be cooled far better than any possible combination of air-cooled heatsinks.
If you consider water-cooling, it may not be true, as water's thermal conductivity is around 0.6 W/m.k, versus air's 0.025. Copper is still several hundred times higher, but given a high enough temperature differential, water's convective aspect could exceed copper's pure conduction.
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