PCI-SIG warns that some 12VHPWR adapters can get dangerously hot

[mongeese]

Recap: The Peripheral Component Interconnect Special Interest Group (PCI-SIG) is the standards body that writes the specifications for the major system interconnects, including PCIe. Last year it ratified a new standard aiming to anticipate the future power consumption of high-performance GPUs: the woefully named 12VHPWR connector for PCIe 5.0 devices.

You might've already seen 12VHPWR replacing some 8-pin Molex connectors on the newest power supplies. It can deliver 600W across 12 rails, four times as much as an 8-pin connector. It's about the same size as an 8-pin to boot.

PCI-SIG is happy with the 12VHPWR standard — that's not the problem. The problem is with the cheap 8-pin to 12VHPWR adapters that vendors are beginning to bundle with some power supplies. Wccftech reports that the group sent the following message to its members last week.

Please be advised that PCI-SIG has become aware that some implementations of the 12VHPWR connectors and assemblies have demonstrated thermal variance, which could result in safety issues under certain conditions. Although PCI-SIG specifications provide necessary information for interoperability, they do not attempt to encompass all aspects of proper design, relying on numerous industry best-known methods and standard design practices. As the PCI-SIG workgroups include many knowledgeable experts in the field of connector and system design, they will be looking at the information available about this industry issue and assisting in any resolution to whatever extent is appropriate.

As more details emerge, PCI-SIG may provide further updates. In the meanwhile, we recommend members work closely with their connector vendors and exercise due diligence in using high-power connections, particularly where safety concerns may exist.

In its veiled way, the group is saying that some components could melt or catch fire if pushed to their limits in an adverse environment, like a hot case.

Wccftech speculates that the problem originates with the variability of 8-pin connectors. Many current-gen GPUs require multiple 8-pin ports, and even then, they often exceed the rated limit of those connectors. Sometimes, the GPU will draw most of its power from one plug, burdening it unnecessarily.

In a quick spot of testing, Wccftech hooked up two 8-pins to one 12VHPWR connector with an adapter and put them under a 600W load. The power supply readily delivered the 600W by transferring slightly more than 300W per 8-pin even though they're only rated for 150W each.

The takeaway is that if you're planning on upgrading to a flagship member of the RTX 4000-series, you should first upgrade your power supply to one sporting the 12VHPWR connector. According to some, the RTX 4090 could have a TDP of 450W, with extreme editions pushing the envelope up to 800W.

Masthead credit: Abdullah Abid

Permalink to story.

https://www.techspot.com/news/95934-pci-sig-warns-12vhpwr-adapters-can-get-dangerously.html

 

[yRaz]

If I wasn't too busy "enjoying" myself this weekend then I'd as WTF is a 12VHPWR.

and, frankly, is it even really 12 volts because you're going from 8 pins to 12 pins at 600watts. I'm sure I don't have to break down Ohms law for the audience reading this article.

 

[neeyik]

If I wasn't too busy "enjoying" myself this weekend then I'd as WTF is a 12VHPWR.

and, frankly, is it even really 12 volts because you're going from 8 pins to 12 pins at 600watts. I'm sure I don't have to break down Ohms law for the audience reading this article.

The only difference between the current 6 and 8 pin power connectors on GPUs is additional grounds (this allows for more current to be drawn down the +12V lines). The 8 pin one still only has three +12V lines.

Edit: Should add that in the 6 pin connector one of the ground pins is for sense line and thus no current is returned down, so one of the +12 pins often is connected to anything at all. This is why the official power draw limit is 75W (3.1A per line). The 8 pin connector has all three 12V lines hooked up, an additional sense pin to differentiate 6/8 pin connections, and an additional ground. The extra sense acts as another ground if a full 8 pin connection is detected, essentially allowing for a slightly high current draw down the three 13 lines (4.2A each).

12VHPWR is a different bucket of fish altogether. The connector comprises 16 pins in total: 12 for power and 4 for signalling. The former comprises six +12V and six ground lines; all sensing is handled via the signalling pins. So there is a significant uplift in terms of supply and return lines, hence the much higher power limit.

 

[Avro Arrow]

The only question I guess is what one should do if they have a high-end PSU that doesn't have this connector. I have no interest in upgrading my EVGA 1000 G2 Supernova and while I'm not about to go and buy an RTX 4000-series card, I'm sure that there are many in a similar boat as me who are perfectly willing to fork out for one.

Can one purchase a 12VHPWR cable by itself and if so, will the PSU recognise it? I had some serious headaches changing my father's PSU over from a detonation-risk Gigabyte to a Corsair. The power wires all fit the Corsair, but none of them actually worked with it. I had thought that the PSU might have been a dud but thought "A DOA Corsair PSU seems extremely unlikely so I'll try switching to the wires that came with it. After about 30 minutes of sheer bliss trying to figure out the cable management scheme of whoever built his PC and routing the new cables, the thing powered up perfectly and I was left scratching my head.

This surprised me because I didn't have to change my wires when I switched from my old OCZ Z1000M to my current EVGA PSU. I just unplugged them from the OCZ and plugged them into the EVGA. To this day, they still work perfectly fine. Weird, eh? This year I discovered that there was nothing wrong with my OCZ as I used it to run my mining rig (FX-8350, 990FX mobo, RX 5700 XT, RX 6800 XT) for almost 6 months straight without issue.

 

[neeyik]

Can one purchase a 12VHPWR cable by itself and if so, will the PSU recognise it?

Yes, as the connector is already in use: the 3090 Ti has it, although the signalling pins aren’t used. All 3090 Ti’s sold come with a cable with three 8 pin connectors, so the sensing will be down the relevant pins in those connectors.

 

[Hodor]

They should rename them to Sofia Vergara. Then getting "dangerous hot" wouldn't sound that bad.

 

[yRaz]

The only difference between the current 6 and 8 pin power connectors on GPUs is additional grounds (this allows for more current to be drawn down the +12V lines). The 8 pin one still only has three +12V lines.

Edit: Should add that in the 6 pin connector one of the ground pins is for sense line and thus no current is returned down, so one of the +12 pins often is connected to anything at all. This is why the official power draw limit is 75W (3.1A per line). The 8 pin connector has all three 12V lines hooked up, an additional sense pin to differentiate 6/8 pin connections, and an additional ground. The extra sense acts as another ground if a full 8 pin connection is detected, essentially allowing for a slightly high current draw down the three 13 lines (4.2A each).

12VHPWR is a different bucket of fish altogether. The connector comprises 16 pins in total: 12 for power and 4 for signalling. The former comprises six +12V and six ground lines; all sensing is handled via the signalling pins. So there is a significant uplift in terms of supply and return lines, hence the much higher power limit.

That was actually really interesting, thank you for clarifying

 

[bviktor]

Reduce power use already

 

[nodfor]

So the 1000W platinum PSU that I bought 2 years ago for 200+ EUR cannot support next gen gpus?

 

[takaozo]

It's not only about the number of negative and positive wires, it has to do with conductor AWG and also connector pins contact area. Some PSU and adapter cables may reduce costs with low power cables.

BTW the modular bullcrap PSU's are double impacted because the double connectors. Adding an adapter to a modular PSU will double the risk.

https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/American-Wire-Gauge-AWG-Size-Chart.png

When build my house for a 20 AMPs circuit, only the breaker and the outlet are 20A , the wires are for 25A. Because you cannot change wires in walls that fast. When I buy a PSU I check wires AWG also not only the specs. And of course one end soldered to PCB not modular.

 

[Uncle Al]

You mean having your PC suddenly smoke violently then burst into flames isn't part of the gaming experience ... Really??????

 

[Vanderlinde]

The power supply readily delivered the 600W by transferring slightly more than 300W per 8-pin even though they're only rated for 150W each.

The PCI-E connectors or cables, 6 to 8 pin can handle far more then rated for. 12A max per yellow wire actually.

Just dont try this on a cheaply build PSU. Wires will melt and cause a shortcut.

 

[godrilla]

"The takeaway is that if you're planning on upgrading to a flagship member of the RTX 4000-series, you should first upgrade your power supply to one sporting the 12VHPWR"
Any Sfx small form factor PSUs in the pipeline?

Update only one came up at a reasonable price of $150

Lian Li SP850 White 850W SFX Power Supply Review - The FPS Review

The Lian Li SP850 White 850W SFX Power Supply is the first SFX PSU with a 12-pin 12VHPWR PCIe 5.0 connector, we validate this PSU under heavy workload.

www.thefpsreview.com

 

[kiwigraeme]

If I wasn't too busy "enjoying" myself this weekend then I'd as WTF is a 12VHPWR.

and, frankly, is it even really 12 volts because you're going from 8 pins to 12 pins at 600watts. I'm sure I don't have to break down Ohms law for the audience reading this article.

From my basic schooling - it's just the thickness and quality of wire and connections as to whether you have a heating coil or not .
Remember watching people use cheap jumpstart cables - especially if one is not attached to engine as well - the cheap plastic just burning off in seconds.- Imagine using them on a 24V land cruiser - like the cheap jacks some cars use to come with the buckled if not perfectly flat and 90 degrees
Had some garage do a cheap switch on dashboard in South Africa for cooling fan - as heat switch in radiator whatever it was called didn't work - they attached a thin wire to 12V battery - lucky I cut engine from seeing smoke - as cut 2/3s through fuel line

 

[Adhmuz]

This surprised me because I didn't have to change my wires when I switched from my old OCZ Z1000M to my current EVGA PSU. I just unplugged them from the OCZ and plugged them into the EVGA. To this day, they still work perfectly fine. Weird, eh? This year I discovered that there was nothing wrong with my OCZ as I used it to run my mining rig (FX-8350, 990FX mobo, RX 5700 XT, RX 6800 XT) for almost 6 months straight without issue.

That's a real gamble and you hit the jackpot, I'd never attempt doing this when changing brands of modular PSUs, even changing within the same brand can be a risk, I know Corsair has had a few different version of their modular cables over the years. Possibly OCZ and EVGA used the same OEM back then.

 

[Adhmuz]

The only difference between the current 6 and 8 pin power connectors on GPUs is additional grounds (this allows for more current to be drawn down the +12V lines). The 8 pin one still only has three +12V lines.

Edit: Should add that in the 6 pin connector one of the ground pins is for sense line and thus no current is returned down, so one of the +12 pins often is connected to anything at all. This is why the official power draw limit is 75W (3.1A per line). The 8 pin connector has all three 12V lines hooked up, an additional sense pin to differentiate 6/8 pin connections, and an additional ground. The extra sense acts as another ground if a full 8 pin connection is detected, essentially allowing for a slightly high current draw down the three 13 lines (4.2A each).

12VHPWR is a different bucket of fish altogether. The connector comprises 16 pins in total: 12 for power and 4 for signalling. The former comprises six +12V and six ground lines; all sensing is handled via the signalling pins. So there is a significant uplift in terms of supply and return lines, hence the much higher power limit.

With all PSUs not being made equally I can easily see the risk in trying to adapt 2x8 PCIE to this new 12VHPWR connector.

However as it seems to be rather common place for modular PSUs to use a single 8 pin on the PSU side and then dual 150 watt 8 pins on the GPU side you'd expect they can already handle 300 watts per 8 pin PSU port. If a cable was made that connected directly to 2 of these 8 pin PSU ports and then have the new 12VHPWR connector on the GPU side I'd think this could be the safest way to go.

I'd see it being very dangerous if someone took on of those 2x8 pin PSU power cables and then plugged it into and adapter to provide them with the 600 watt12VHPWR connector, actually I'd like to see what happens in this configuration thermally, could be rather interesting.

 

[yRaz]

With all PSUs not being made equally I can easily see the risk in trying to adapt 2x8 PCIE to this new 12VHPWR connector.

However as it seems to be rather common place for modular PSUs to use a single 8 pin on the PSU side and then dual 150 watt 8 pins on the GPU side you'd expect they can already handle 300 watts per 8 pin PSU port. If a cable was made that connected directly to 2 of these 8 pin PSU ports and then have the new 12VHPWR connector on the GPU side I'd think this could be the safest way to go.

I'd see it being very dangerous if someone took on of those 2x8 pin PSU power cables and then plugged it into and adapter to provide them with the 600 watt12VHPWR connector, actually I'd like to see what happens in this configuration thermally, could be rather interesting.

I remember when I got my ATI x1900xt I took two molex connectors from the same rail and connected them to a 6 pin PCI-e connector. Powersupply went pop as soon as I hit the power button. And it was that incident that lead me to never buying a cheap PSU again. There are lots of things you can cheap out on in a PC but the powersupply isn't one of them.

I know not so much in PCs, but doing something like buying a cheap battery for your car can cause all sorts of problems that make zero sense. I saw a power steering pump that would act up during acceleration because the voltage would drop and the traction control model would shut off. With PCs it's probably just random shutoffs and BSOD's

 

[Avro Arrow]

That's a real gamble and you hit the jackpot, I'd never attempt doing this when changing brands of modular PSUs, even changing within the same brand can be a risk, I know Corsair has had a few different version of their modular cables over the years. Possibly OCZ and EVGA used the same OEM back then.

I don't know that it was a gamble. If the wires aren't compatible, no power flows through them (remember, I thought that the Corsair was a dud). I know that the OEM for the EVGA was/is Superflower. I honestly don't know who the OEM was for OCZ at the time because they had bought PC Power & Cooling a couple of years prior. This was also a decade ago and it's possible that, at that time, companies only used one wire type because modular PSUs were still relatively new.

 

[Adhmuz]

I don't know that it was a gamble. If the wires aren't compatible, no power flows through them (remember, I thought that the Corsair was a dud). I know that the OEM for the EVGA was/is Superflower. I honestly don't know who the OEM was for OCZ at the time because they had bought PC Power & Cooling a couple of years prior. This was also a decade ago and it's possible that, at that time, companies only used one wire type because modular PSUs were still relatively new.

Never assume that, I've seen it a few time were someone made the mistake of swapping out a PSU and plugging in the old units modular cables, the system powered on and fried all their drives because the 12 volt and 5 volt connections on the PSU were reversed. If anything it was worse back then as companies weren't using keyed connectors and preventing another brands of cables from being used in the first place.

A good PSU would perhaps detect this in the case of your Corsair and prevent any damage, one can only hope at least.

Check this site out, they show most of the common brands and their pin outs: https://solosleeving.com/psu-cable-compatibility-and-pinouts/
Thermaltake and Corsair both have the same keyed connector for their Sata/Molex cables and the 12v and 5v are in fact reversed.

 

[Adhmuz]

I know not so much in PCs, but doing something like buying a cheap battery for your car can cause all sorts of problems that make zero sense. I saw a power steering pump that would act up during acceleration because the voltage would drop and the traction control model would shut off. With PCs it's probably just random shutoffs and BSOD's

Wow that must have been one ultra cheap battery! When I bought my car used it had a questionable re-certified battery in it, I've been looking for a reason to replace it numerous times but everytime it turns out to be something else, that was almost 5 years ago and the thing is still going strong. Even had it tested a few times and everytime it comes back fine...

 

[yRaz]

Wow that must have been one ultra cheap battery! When I bought my car used it had a questionable re-certified battery in it, I've been looking for a reason to replace it numerous times but everytime it turns out to be something else, that was almost 5 years ago and the thing is still going strong. Even had it tested a few times and everytime it comes back fine...

electrical problems in cars are a pain to chain. Hot and cold cycles can and loosen or tighten connections. I had a battery that works fine when it gets up to the temperature of the car but the lights flicker until it has had time to warm up. I've had one person tell me that it can be down manufacturing defects on modules that only appear when the voltage is too low and the resistance is too high. But, when you go to test it "it's within factory specs" so you many techs will glance over it. Keeping a known good battery around for testing purposes, and for that battery, a known bad battery is great for diagnostics. You can throw a bad battery in and all of a sudden you get lights for you could potentially have issues with in the future.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Never assume that, I've seen it a few time were someone made the mistake of swapping out a PSU and plugging in the old units modular cables, the system powered on and fried all their drives because the 12 volt and 5 volt connections on the PSU were reversed. If anything it was worse back then as companies weren't using keyed connectors and preventing another brands of cables from being used in the first place.

A good PSU would perhaps detect this in the case of your Corsair and prevent any damage, one can only hope at least.

Check this site out, they show most of the common brands and their pin outs: https://solosleeving.com/psu-cable-compatibility-and-pinouts/
Thermaltake and Corsair both have the same keyed connector for their Sata/Molex cables and the 12v and 5v are in fact reversed.

That's a great resource. Thanks!