Some Ryzen 8000G APUs could drastically reduce SSD and GPU performance

[DragonSlayer101]

In brief: AMD announced its Ryzen 8000G-series desktop processors at CES 2024 earlier this month. Boasting Zen 4 core architecture and RDNA 3 graphics, the new APUs are made up of 4 SKUs: two high-end models based on Phoenix 1 dies, and two entry-level products based on Phoenix 2. New developments now suggest that the Phoenix 2 chips could support much lower SSD speeds and GPU performance compared to their Phoenix 1 counterparts.

Official specs published by Gigabyte for its B650E AORUS ELITE X AX ICE motherboard reveal that the two Phoenix 2 chips in the lineup, the Ryzen 5 8500G and Ryzen 3 8300G, will offer only PCIe 4.0 x4 functionality for discrete graphics cards, while the Phoenix 1 APUs, the Ryzen 7 8700G and Ryzen 5 8600G, will support PCIe 4.0 x8.

It's a similar story with the M.2 lanes, which will be cut from PCIe 4.0 x4 in the two Phoenix 1 chips to PCIe 4.0 x2 for Phoenix 2, virtually halving SSD performance. This means the two lower-end 8000G chips will only be able to run a PCIe 4.0 SSD with two lanes instead of four and external graphics cards with just four lanes instead of 8 or 16, which are supported by most modern desktop platforms. Unlike Ryzen 7000, none of the 8000G APUs support PCIe 5.0.

The support for fewer PCIe lanes is expected to have a negative impact on the SSD speed and discrete GPU performance, especially if you are looking to install high-end components. It shouldn't, however, be an issue for entry-level graphics cards, many of which still only support 4x PCIe 4.0 lanes anyway.

Reports claim that AMD had originally listed only single-channel memory support for the Phoenix 2 APUs, but that has since been updated to show dual-channel memory support for the 8300G. While a single channel would have still offered enough bandwidth to run the iGPUs, it wouldn't have been enough to extract full performance out of discrete graphics cards, so dual-channel support is definitely good news.

Permalink to story.

https://www.techspot.com/news/101573-ryzen-8000g-apus-could-drastically-reduce-ssd-gpu.html

 

[HardReset]

"While a single channel would have still offered enough bandwidth to run the iGPUs, it wouldn't have been enough to extract full performance out of discrete graphics cards, so dual-channel support is definitely good news."

Exactly opposite. IGP suffer greatly from single channel, but for discrete card difference is hard to notice.

 

[bviktor]

I really don't understand why they have to cheap out on stuff like this. Their chipsets are already ridiculously overpriced.

 

[ET3D]

The writeup is misleading on the SSD front. The first SSD will have full x4 and the second only x2. The GPU will have 4x.

There are 14 lanes total for the lower end chips. 4 go to the CPU-MB communication, 6 will go to the NVMe drives and 4 to the GPU.

 

[HardReset]

I really don't understand why they have to cheap out on stuff like this. Their chipsets are already ridiculously overpriced.

Chipsets are not overpriced. PCIe 4.0 requires good and fairly expensive signaling. PCIe 5.0 is much more demanding and expensive.

For chipset costs, remember that x570 chipset is exactly same chip that is found on AM4 Ryzens (IO chip). Considering how cheap many Ryzens are, chipset cost is not an issue.

 

[bviktor]

Chipsets are not overpriced. PCIe 4.0 requires good and fairly expensive signaling. PCIe 5.0 is much more demanding and expensive.

For chipset costs, remember that x570 chipset is exactly same chip that is found on AM4 Ryzens (IO chip). Considering how cheap many Ryzens are, chipset cost is not an issue.

It is, for me lol. But thanks for letting me know what I think.

 

[Atmajaya2020]

One step back for AMD in the APU department..

 

[wiak]

The lower you go the less features you get, this is nothing new, happens all the time

 

[Superconductor]

Unresolved USB issues X570 ... and now this.

 

[Dimitrios]

Unresolved USB issues X570 ... and now this.

I had a person complaining a while back about his X570. He built his own rig and as time went on he would start his PC and it would warn him of overvoltage and then automatically shut down. He pulled it apart checked it and it was fine. Started happening again and again. He tested it and it was fine then same cycle started again.....

I pulled it apart and laid it on a table I ran it and tested it for a few days everything was perfect and ran it with benchmarks for long periods of time, and it was all fine. Then I had issues once it was in the case. Then I realized he HAD NO SPACER backplate screws that separate the back of the motherboard from the METAL chassis of the case. I added them and a year or so later not one problem.LOL It was shorting.

 

[BobHome]

One step back for AMD in the APU department..

I agree. Might help next gen Intel's, huh?

 

[Theinsanegamer]

It really is a shame. I went intel on my media PC build, because for the price of a 6 core AMD chip, I got a 6+4 core intel chip that outperforms the intel chip, AND a motherboard. If one were building a small, cheap rig with the hope of upgrading later, they would be sorely disappointed to find their "cheap" platform would need a new CPU, thus costing more then premium platforms, and still wouldnt offer the same level of performance.

"While a single channel would have still offered enough bandwidth to run the iGPUs, it wouldn't have been enough to extract full performance out of discrete graphics cards, so dual-channel support is definitely good news."

Exactly opposite. IGP suffer greatly from single channel, but for discrete card difference is hard to notice.

Modern games will still suffer, they are getting heavier on bandwidth.

I really don't understand why they have to cheap out on stuff like this. Their chipsets are already ridiculously overpriced.

Because AMD really doesnt care about budget consumers, and hasnt since zen 2. That's why there was no quad core zen 3, and why they have drug their feet on APUs. Their production space is limited and higher margin stuff wins the day.

Chipsets are not overpriced. PCIe 4.0 requires good and fairly expensive signaling. PCIe 5.0 is much more demanding and expensive.

For chipset costs, remember that x570 chipset is exactly same chip that is found on AM4 Ryzens (IO chip). Considering how cheap many Ryzens are, chipset cost is not an issue.

Chipsets are MASSIVELY overpriced. PCIe 5.0 does not double the price of motherboards, as intel has shown. Especially when it is only a single slot. Even boards that are 4.0 only are easily 30-40% more then their AM4 brothers, with cheaper VRMS and tiny heatsinks and lacking USB.

AMD's 600 series boards are a total mess compared to intel equivalent boards.

The lower you go the less features you get, this is nothing new, happens all the time

It should be noted that even intel's 300 CPU, and under-powered turd, has enough lanes for a x16 GPU. And its cheaper then the 8000g chips.

 

[hahahanoobs]

The writeup is misleading on the SSD front. The first SSD will have full x4 and the second only x2. The GPU will have 4x.

There are 14 lanes total for the lower end chips. 4 go to the CPU-MB communication, 6 will go to the NVMe drives and 4 to the GPU.

x4 to Chipset
x4 to GPU
x4 to NVMe in M2A slot
x2 to NMe in M2B slot

I kept thinking the articles were saying all the drives were x2 so I kept looking until I got an answer. It's the reduced lanes to the SECOND NVMe coming from CPU, not all the NVMe drives from CPU.

"However, PCGamesN noticed that Gigabyte has posted the full specs for the B650E Aorus Elite X AX Ice motherboard and it looks like there's a much bigger difference between the Phoenix 1 and Phoenix 2 based APUs. Namely, the Phoenix 2 APUs have fewer PCIe lanes and as such are limited to two PCIe 4.0 lanes for the secondary NVMe slot."

 

[HardReset]

Modern games will still suffer, they are getting heavier on bandwidth.

Yeah but IGP still suffers lot more.

Chipsets are MASSIVELY overpriced. PCIe 5.0 does not double the price of motherboards, as intel has shown. Especially when it is only a single slot. Even boards that are 4.0 only are easily 30-40% more then their AM4 brothers, with cheaper VRMS and tiny heatsinks and lacking USB.

AMD's 600 series boards are a total mess compared to intel equivalent boards.

Equivalent Intel boards, OK. Give Intel desktop class motherboard that has following (or similar) connectivity, nothing is shared and all can be used same time on full speeds:

PCI Express x16 slot 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 PCIe 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 PCIe 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 4.0 (from chipset)
M.2 slot x4 4.0 (from chipset)

Good luck.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

Yeah but IGP still suffers lot more.

Equivalent Intel boards, OK. Give Intel desktop class motherboard that has following (or similar) connectivity, nothing is shared and all can be used same time on full speeds:

PCI Express x16 slot 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 PCIe 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 PCIe 5.0 (from CPU)
M.2 slot x4 4.0 (from chipset)
M.2 slot x4 4.0 (from chipset)

Good luck.

Do you just enjoy setting up strawmen? I'm not sure what you even want me to find, it has nothing to do with the argument, which was that the EQUIVALENT intel board is usually a better price for similar features.

Christ learn to hold a conversation or just dont bother.

 

[Lazz1]

Do you just enjoy setting up strawmen? I'm not sure what you even want me to find, it has nothing to do with the argument, which was that the EQUIVALENT intel board is usually a better price for similar features.

Intel only offer these prices after years of digging their heels in and offering extremely outdated products at ludicrous margins, I'm glad they're finally on parity but they're probably not going to be for long, especially if they take back market share. Even in the laptop market space, only now are their CPU offerings actually competitive in terms of iGPU performance with the Core Ultra chips. 13th gen was still power hungry for what it offered, and they continued to cheap out on iGPUs when the market was clearly there for it.

Christ learn to hold a conversation or just dont bother.

Most people generally don't want to hold conversations with someone who gets emotional and defensive easily.

In regards to the topic, neither SSD speeds and especially not GPU speeds are relevant for someone looking for an APU setup. This isn't really an issue for most people buying these chips.

 

[TekCheck]

As if the article author did not know that this is nothing new. We had the same situation with low end Athlon on AM4. Literally the same situation.

Who in their right mind would ever want to pair 8500G or 8300G with good discrete GPU? Right? Right?
Those Phoenix 2 SKUs are simply for entry A620 and B650 systems and not for expensive B650 boards like the one from Gigabyte.

One would need to be the worst DIY-er in the world to buy expensive B650, GPU and 8500G APU. Nonsense.

 

[HardReset]

Do you just enjoy setting up strawmen? I'm not sure what you even want me to find, it has nothing to do with the argument, which was that the EQUIVALENT intel board is usually a better price for similar features.

Christ learn to hold a conversation or just dont bother.

Let me remind about that EQUIVALENT part.

AMD's 600 series boards are a total mess compared to intel equivalent boards.

There are no equivalent Intel boards. AMD 600-series boards just miles better. There is nothing on Intel side that gets even close against best AM5 boards.

Then why AM5 boards are more expensive than AM4 ones:

- AM4 is fading platform whereas AM5 is new one
- AMD probably wanted AM5 boards to have guaranteed support for future CPUs (AM4 is bit of a mess), and that support costs
- AM5 socket is more expensive than AM4
- DDR5 is more expensive than DDR4
- Even A620 boards seem to have 256Mb BIOS vs much smaller on AM4

As for AM5 vs Intel, no real idea about that one but still AM5-boards very probably will have has much wider support for different CPUs. Probably because AMD demanded it this time. And that support is not free.

 

[Atmajaya2020]

Who in their right mind would ever want to pair 8500G or 8300G with good discrete GPU? Right? Right?

youre right..
but what are the criteria for a discrete gpu to be called good..?
for someone using those cpus, an rx7600 or rtx4060 is a good discrete gpu..

 

[Kam7r]

Click bait ... Who need PCie 5 SSD's speed in the real world ? bragging rights ? maybe some special cases, the niche of a niche in the niche ... useless ... and until we see some GPUs who REALLY need pcie5 speed... those cpus will be long gone or totally obsolete

 

[tschamp31]

Click bait ... Who need PCie 5 SSD's speed in the real world ? bragging rights ? maybe some special cases, the niche of a niche in the niche ... useless ... and until we see some GPUs who REALLY need pcie5 speed... those cpus will be long gone or totally obsolete

I wouldn't say it's clickbait as it is a factual statement. I think the issue is some may not be deep enough into the knowledge to know this is very unlikely to impact them nor the target audience for the APU.

The only high-end user I can think of that may find any issue with this is someone who may be delivering on-site ML models that would utilize the rdna3 for inference while needing good memory bandwidth and a lot of storage to collect the data. Which again goes back to your point of nicheness.

Hell the nvme pcie card market isn't even mature yet in my opinion.

 

[ibnMuhammad]

I really don't understand why they have to cheap out on stuff like this. Their chipsets are already ridiculously overpriced.

People here are failing to realise simple physics - a powerful iGPU requires significant space in the CPU to accommodate extra cache and PCIe lanes.

This is why the equivalent iGPU Ryzen parts have always been slower.
e.g. 5600G only has 16mb of L3, while the equivalent R5 5600 has 32mb L3.

Same with the 8000G series chips.

 

[TekCheck]

youre right..
but what are the criteria for a discrete gpu to be called good..?
for someone using those cpus, an rx7600 or rtx4060 is a good discrete gpu..

Irrelevant. People need to read motherboard spec. It clearly reads that with Phoenix 2 desktop APUs any GPU, "good" or "bad", will work as Gen4 x4. If they are happy with that fact, be my guest and enjoy it.

 

[erickmendes]

It's a budget cpu mainly intended for building a PC without a discrete GPU... lower NMVe performance wouldn't affect real world use on most use cases so why bash it like that?

 

[TekCheck]

It's a budget cpu mainly intended for building a PC without a discrete GPU... lower NMVe performance wouldn't affect real world use on most use cases so why bash it like that?

Some people are just bored...