The American Civil Liberties Union is suing 11 federal agencies for 'ethical hacking'

mongeese

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Why it matters: After 11 federal agencies, including the FBI, ICE and the Drug Enforcement Administration failed to respond to a Freedom of Information Act request, ACLU decided to take it a step further and sue them for breaching democratic practices. The two main issues the ACLU hopes to bring to light are the number of bystanders whose information caught in the crossfire, and the lack of oversight these agencies have.

‘Ethical hacking’ or so it’s called, when cybercriminals get taken down by hackers. No one is complaining when the FBI go ruthlessly on terrorists or drug lords, but the ACLU isn’t wrong when they say “it’s impossible for the public to meaningfully determine whether and when the government should engage in hacking.” The American public has very little insight into the hacking federal agencies do.

What we do know has come from a variety of leaks and court documents. For example, last month Motherboard obtained documents that detailed how the FBI impersonated FedEx to deploy malware to catch scammers, and how they mimicked a news agency to trick a teenager into downloading malware to determine if his joke about a bomb threat was true. Wouldn’t therapy be a little more appropriate?

The FBI has also been known to use “waterhole” attacks, where they capture servers and use NITs (Network Investigative Techniques) to deploy malware on any devices that connect to those servers. It was good when they deployed the NIT on a child pornography site, slightly less so when they used it on a popular Tor website host. To be clear, none of these actions are necessarily bad, but they do highlight how the government can do whatever it wants when it comes to spying.

“Given the serious issues at stake, the public has a right to know the nature and extent of the government’s hacking activities and, importantly, the rules that govern these powerful surveillance tools. But so far, most of what we know is based on scattered news accounts.

The lawsuit demands that the agencies disclose which hacking tools and methods they use, how often they use them, the legal basis for employing these methods, and any internal rules that govern them. We are also seeking any internal audits or investigations related to their use.”

There certainly is some oversight of the application of NITs, but it’s still mostly hidden from the public.

In the warrant regarding the use of an NIT to catch a scammer, the FBI actually noted that they didn’t think they needed to have a warrant but got one just in case over legal questions about the victim clicking “exit protected mode” in a Word document to trigger the attack.

Additionally, it’s a known fact that the FBI keeps several exploits under lock and key. Assuming they use them correctly and morally 100% of the time, then users’ devices remain unpatched, though there is always potential for one of these exploits to be leaked at some point. It'll be interesting to watch the results of the lawsuit. The FBI declined to comment.

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Once more, the organization who has no idea on what they're talking about attempting to legislate and sue over practices that they don't understand. Welcome to the ACLU. Carry on.

The government can't catch bad guys when they spill the details on exactly how they're catching bad guys. Common sense has never been so uncommon.
 
Once more, the organization who has no idea on what they're talking about attempting to legislate and sue over practices that they don't understand. Welcome to the ACLU. Carry on.

The government can't catch bad guys when they spill the details on exactly how they're catching bad guys. Common sense has never been so uncommon.
They wouldn’t be required to disclose while doing it in most cases - it’s more a case of accountability. Once a “sting” has been executed, it should be disclosed to someone to be sure it was done legally.

Without any checks or balances, what prevents some bureaucrat from using the system to catch his wife cheating... or worse...
 
There are no legalities protecting secretes from a spouse. Once again I don't see a problem.
Hacking a network to infect a spouses computer with malware to spy on them is. Say you hack a cell phone given to them by work, that would be illegal. Your motivation for receiving a legal outcome does not mean the means of doing so is legal. If we say that it is that can set a legal precedent for things you will have problems with
 
Once more, the organization who has no idea on what they're talking about attempting to legislate and sue over practices that they don't understand. Welcome to the ACLU. Carry on.

The government can't catch bad guys when they spill the details on exactly how they're catching bad guys. Common sense has never been so uncommon.
The tension between catching bad guys and protecting the public from an unchecked government has existed at least since the founding of our country, if not well before, and the ACLU is indeed a subject matter expert on the big picture of that. Your belief that any small details such as to specifics about hacking, etc., in anyway overrides the much larger principles at stake is enough to suggest to me that it is you who are lacking key understandings.

We caught plenty of criminals before there were computers and networks, and when the rules and limits for law enforcement were discussed, published, and understood. We can continue to do so in the modern world without surrendering our liberty or Constitution.
 
Hacking a network
This may be what you are talking about. It is not what I am talking about. You are trying to take me down a road I wasn't traveling. Of course hacking a network is illegal. That also escapes the bounds of being a domestic issue.
 
Once more, the organization who has no idea on what they're talking about attempting to legislate and sue over practices that they don't understand. Welcome to the ACLU. Carry on.

The government can't catch bad guys when they spill the details on exactly how they're catching bad guys. Common sense has never been so uncommon.
The tension between catching bad guys and protecting the public from an unchecked government has existed at least since the founding of our country, if not well before, and the ACLU is indeed a subject matter expert on the big picture of that. Your belief that any small details such as to specifics about hacking, etc., in anyway overrides the much larger principles at stake is enough to suggest to me that it is you who are lacking key understandings.

We caught plenty of criminals before there were computers and networks, and when the rules and limits for law enforcement were discussed, published, and understood. We can continue to do so in the modern world without surrendering our liberty or Constitution.

Contrary to popular belief, the game is changing when you include emerging technology in catching criminals. I'm not lacking key understandings, it's simply about adapting to the larger picture in the modern world. There will be no finite answer to this topic, however the crushing paranoia that the government is out to get you is childish. Yes, they need to be held in check - however the reality of the situation is certain tactics that are employed need to be kept out of the public view and knowledge base... So that these tactics continue to work.

Regarding your last paragraph, we in fact cannot continue to uphold the same liberties as we once did prior to computers. The very aspect of privacy in and of itself has been redefined once you consider the digital footprints of online privacy.

These larger principles of "hacking" remain unchanged, but the smaller aspects pertaining to application are precisely what the ACLU commonly discredits, or chooses to ignore. They have the rose-tinted glasses, and then there's reality. One can either hold the belief that without the government having any access to our communications we are safe, or one can hold the belief of accountability for our elected officials, and we as a citizenship understand and allow them to employ tactics of the 21st century.
 
however the reality of the situation is certain tactics that are employed need to be kept out of the public view and knowledge base... So that these tactics continue to work.
I can not agree. The notion that people will get away with a crime, lets their arrogance get in the way. People in general will walk a straight path, if they know there is no room for tolerance. What you are doing is choosing to bait a crime, instead of preventing it altogether.
 
Left unchecked any governmental organization will push the boundaries of it's legal & ethical limits simply because part of their mission is to keep pace with the very citizen's they serve. Any form of checks & balances works in favor of democracy as well as it's citizens. There are exceptions, but they are very few and usually only along the lines of real National Security (not to be confused with that garbage the NSA operates under). The simple term 'ethical hacking' says it all. If it is indeed ethical then make it legal by obtaining a warrant from a Federal Court (not to be confused with a FISA judge), go on record and make the results public (unless the issue is a real National Security issue). There are exceptions, but as an asurance to the American people, those exceptions should be difficult and timely to obtain exceptions to. Were they not, we would be having the wool pulled over our eyes even more than it already has been.
 
however the reality of the situation is certain tactics that are employed need to be kept out of the public view and knowledge base... So that these tactics continue to work.
I can not agree. The notion that people will get away with a crime, lets their arrogance get in the way. People in general will walk a straight path, if they know there is no room for tolerance. What you are doing is choosing to bait a crime, instead of preventing it altogether.
Baiting a crime is called entrapment and is cause for dismissal of a criminal case. Just because tv shows always do it doesn't say it's legal, nor is hacking. Our government should be the "ethical" example, not cause hacking if the spyware, say, gets out into the wild. I am tired of the government's extreme spying too; against intl. treaties, worse than violating constitutional law. If the police put keys in a cadillac to try to catch a criminal, that's invalid evidence.
 
Once more, the organization who has no idea on what they're talking about attempting to legislate and sue over practices that they don't understand. Welcome to the ACLU. Carry on.

The government can't catch bad guys when they spill the details on exactly how they're catching bad guys. Common sense has never been so uncommon.

im sorry very much disagree, they cant just come into your house without a warrant.. this should be the same. you personal data and home network should still be considered your home. get proper access through legal channels. gov or non gov.
 
im sorry very much disagree, they cant just come into your house without a warrant.. this should be the same. you personal data and home network should still be considered your home. get proper access through legal channels. gov or non gov.

This is where things get murky. What about the overwhelming amount of data that is stored on the cloud? That's not local to your residence. Therefore, what constitutes as "your home"? Facebook, Google, or any other companies that harvest your data. They gather, organize, and farm your data out every second. Do they need a warrant to use your data? No, because you signed some ridiculously long ToU that may or may not be ethical.

Shouldn't accountability be handled by our elected officials? Because if everyone knows how the feds operate, then so do the bad guys. I have no issue with general transparency on non-national security issues, but certain topics (bomb threats spelled out by this article for example) are on a need to know basis by those qualified.
 
This is where things get murky. What about the overwhelming amount of data that is stored on the cloud?
Nothing murky about it. That is one of the points in using the cloud, get your data out of your possession. Once your data is out of your possession, a ToU is all there is protecting your data. A ToU can be changed at any time and done without your consent.
 
Yes, they need to be held in check - however the reality of the situation is certain tactics that are employed need to be kept out of the public view and knowledge base... So that these tactics continue to work.
IMO, even if these tactics are kept out of the public view, hackers - the black hat kind - will take efforts to protect themselves from such tactics. After all, they are hackers employing a similar mindset. They will be well aware that whatever tactics they can dream up may well be used against them, too.

In the US, no one is supposed to be above the law. Willy-nilly breaking laws in the name of justice is, plainly put, illegal, and by the law, is inadmissible in court as evidence against the entity(ies) they were used on.

As I see it, the reality is that not all those in government follow ethical practices. There are cases over the years where it has been shown that the government fabricated evidence against criminals, or worse yet, against innocent people just to get a conviction.

Whether you like the ACLU or not, this is when they tend to step in - when evidence is either illegally gathered or outright fabricated against anyone - innocent or guilty.

As I see it, to come out and say, essentially, that the ACLU is evil is to condone the fabrication of evidence against any party guilty or not.
 
Being married to someone doesn't give you any legal right to violate their privacy.
"legal right to violate" - That doesn't even make sense. No one will ever have a legal right to violate.

You give up legal rights to privacy when you join in marriage. In fact the law even dictates both parties are to keep their joint privacy secret.

https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/...and-responsibilities-of-a-married-person.html

I underlined the points I am projecting.
Your Marital Rights
Marital rights can vary from state to state, however, most states recognize the following spousal rights:

  • ability to open joint bank accounts
  • ability to file joint federal and state tax returns
  • right to receive “marriage” or “family rate” on health, car and/or liability insurance
  • right to inherit spouse’s property upon death
  • right to sue for spouse’s wrongful death or loss of consortium, and
  • right to receive spouse’s Social Security, pension, worker’s compensation, or disability benefits.
In addition, marriage entitles you to a share of all marital property. This includes the right to any property and income accrued by your spouse during the marriage. The particular laws of your state will affect how marital property is divided between you and your spouse in the event of divorce. For example, in community property states like California, both spouses enjoy equal rights (50/50) to property acquired during the marriage. The majority of states follow an equitable division approach, meaning marital property will be divided equitably or fairly between divorcing spouses—though not necessarily equally.

Your Marital Responsibilities
When you get married, you're promising to treat your spouse with respect. In many states, if one spouse engages in certain marital misconduct, such as abandonment, abuse, or adultery, that behavior can provide the grounds for a fault-based divorce and may even affect alimony and property division.

Additionally, spouses owe a fiduciary duty to one another. What this means is that your prospective spouse can’t lie to you about finances, a criminal past, or their current marriage to another spouse to induce you into marrying them. A marriage based on one spouse’s fraud can be annulled under certain circumstances.

Once married, you continue to owe your spouse a fiduciary duty regarding finances and property—similar to the duties owed between business partners. You can't hide funds, waste marital assets or send marital income offshore or to another person—like a lover—without your spouse's consent. If you breach your fiduciary duties to your spouse, and your financial misconduct is discovered during a divorce, most courts will order you to reimburse your spouse for the funds you lost or wasted.

Spouses also owe each other the duty to keep confidential communications private. The marital communication privilege or “spousal privilege” prevents either spouse from disclosing confidential marital communications. Either spouse can invoke the privilege to prevent the other from testifying about a confidential marital communication. A spouse can testify about the other spouse’s actions like seeing the spouse selling drugs. However, one spouse can’t testify about confidential communications during the marriage, such as one spouse’s disclosure that he’d sold drugs to a friend.

Marriage brings both financial and legal benefits as well as duties. In some cases, these marital rights and responsibilities will continue even after your marriage ends—through death or divorce.
 
"legal right to violate" - That doesn't even make sense. No one will ever have a legal right to violate.

You give up legal rights to privacy when you join in marriage. In fact the law even dictates both parties are to keep their joint privacy secret.

https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/...and-responsibilities-of-a-married-person.html

I underlined the points I am projecting.
None of that gives your spouse the right to, for example, access your phone without your permission.
 
None of that gives your spouse the right to, for example, access your phone without your permission.
You still fail to understand. Your spouse shouldn't care. There should be no secretes between partners. Your mentality is one of the reasons why divorce rates are high.
 
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