The myth of China's stolen EUV machine meets reality: it hasn't made a single chip

[Skye Jacobs]

Cutting corners: Reports that a covert Chinese laboratory had successfully reverse-engineered an EUV machine – the crown jewel of ASML's chipmaking technology – sent shockwaves through the semiconductor community. A deeper analysis, however, paints a far less dramatic picture: the prototype is a nonfunctional patchwork of scavenged components, not an operational system capable of manufacturing chips.

According to a report from Tom's Hardware, China's so-called "Frankenstein" EUV scanner was assembled from mismatched parts sourced through various channels, potentially including surplus equipment sales and online spare-parts markets. The alleged prototype has yet to produce a single chip.

At the core of this challenge is the extraordinary complexity of EUV lithography. ASML's Twinscan NXE platform is not built from a single schematic that could be stolen or copied – it is the product of decades of cooperative R&D spanning thousands of suppliers across the United States, Europe, and Japan. Each company contributes proprietary components: precision optics, vacuum systems, control software, and diagnostic tools, that together form one of the most intricate manufacturing ecosystems in existence.

Among those critical suppliers is Cymer, a US-based company ASML acquired in 2012, which produces the EUV light source. Cymer's system relies on a CO₂ laser-produced plasma that generates 13.5-nanometer radiation. It includes the tin droplet generator, laser targeting unit, debris mitigation unit, and collector mirror assembly.

Even if the hardware could be physically replicated, proprietary software is essential to keep the system running for high-volume manufacturing, a level of integration that no outside entity has achieved.

Adding to the difficulty are the optics. Every EUV system depends on Carl Zeiss' multilayer molybdenum-silicon mirrors, which must reflect extreme ultraviolet light without significant absorption losses. Each mirror requires atomically precise coatings and sub-nanometer wavefront accuracy. Zeiss is the only company in the world capable of producing these optics, and reproducing them would take years of advances in materials science and metrology.

ASML's engineering challenge goes far beyond assembling individual components. The company coordinates thousands of proprietary subsystems: motors, stages, sensors, and control electronics, into a machine that must maintain nanometer-scale accuracy at high throughput.

Much of this know-how resides in human expertise distributed across ASML's network of partners and research institutions such as imec, which no longer collaborates with Chinese customers due to export controls. Even with access to secondhand equipment, rebuilding that network is nearly impossible.

Carl Zeiss' multilayer molybdenum-silicon mirrors are an essential component for EUV systems.

Still, China's chipmakers have found partial workarounds. Firms such as SMIC have reportedly upgraded older ASML deep ultraviolet (DUV) scanners by acquiring refurbished modules and performance data from secondary markets. These modifications have extended the lifespan of DUV tools and marginally improved yields at advanced process nodes. Yet none of these efforts approach the capabilities of a modern EUV platform, which remains tightly controlled by Western export restrictions.

There have also been rumors that a Cymer EUV source was intercepted during transit and reverse-engineered in a covert Chinese lab. But even if individual components were acquired, Tom's Hardware notes that such efforts are unlikely to produce a working system. Without the integrated software and supplier collaboration that make EUV viable, the hardware alone is effectively inert.

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The myth of China's stolen EUV machine meets reality: it hasn't made a single chip

 

[Tinckerbel]

The saying in the picture “it’s not rocket science, but it’s harder” is actually kind of true. A friend of mine who worked at ASML, once overheard an engineer remark that “rocket science” was for people from his class with lower grades. According to him, the top engineers end up at ASML, not SpaceX. Apparently, there are levels to this game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Megalomaniac]

5 years from now we'll look back on this and wonder how the Chinese blew past Nvidia and AMD.

 

[SRB]

5 years from now we'll look back on this and wonder how the Chinese blew past Nvidia and AMD.

We'll have to see what happens and probably will never know. After all, according to the Chinese press, they've blown past them already.

 

[AnilD]

EUV isn’t IKEA furniture — having all the parts doesn’t mean the thing works if you skipped the software, suppliers, and 10,000 calibration steps.

 

[Liranan]

Another anti-China propaganda hit piece, directly from the Ministry of Peace.

I hope it makes everyone feel better, while we get scammed by Sam Altman (and his Star of Remphan AI), AMD, NVIDIA and everyone involved.

 

[mbk34]

I can't remember the exact number (something like 50) countries are involved in the production of a semiconductor chip. Trying to do it all inhouse is simply too much for any one country (it doesn't matter whether it's China or America). This obviously all worked when we had globalisation ...

 

[FaTaL]

China lies about everything. Dont believe all their bullsht.

 

[pnntmp]

Reports that a covert Chinese laboratory had successfully reverse-engineered an EUV machine – the crown jewel of ASML's chipmaking technology – sent shockwaves through the semiconductor community.

Nonsense. Nobody believed these 'reports', except some 'journalists' trying to attract attention.
We're drowning in this China spam, they seem to exceed the speed of light at least once per month

 

[yRaz]

You don't just steal an EUV Machine, I think pictures of some fabs drastically understate the scale and size of EUV machines. The core components themselves are the size of a shipping container with everything else that helps them function making up multiple shipping containers. I'm not saying it's impossible, just extremely improbable.

 

[poohbear]

5 years from now we'll look back on this and wonder how the Chinese blew past Nvidia and AMD.

China doesnt attract the talents of the world. No engineer of any type says "I wanna move and work in China". And until that happens, the Chinese will be stuck w/ only Chinese engineers who mostly think the same. Can they copy stuff? Sure. Can they innovate & lead in technology w/ thier current government, culture, and homegenity? No.

Lots of exaggerated rumors of progress and innovation, like "Deepseek", which turns out to be still generations behind what the West is doing.

 

[VitalyT]

From a Russian proverb - “We haven’t seen the milk yet” (when one asks about a cow yield)

 

[JMGuy]

Another anti-China propaganda hit piece, directly from the Ministry of Peace.

I hope it makes everyone feel better, while we get scammed by Sam Altman (and his Star of Remphan AI), AMD, NVIDIA and everyone involved.

China’s track record on transparency and accountability raises valid concerns. Trying to shift focus to tech giants or AI doesn’t change the fact that trust has to be earned. The issues with China and big tech can both be real without one magically absolving the other.

 

[Melkor Unlimited]

Can they copy stuff? Sure. Can they innovate & lead in technology w/ thier current government, culture, and homegenity? No.

They managed to "copy" western Patent Laws.
And invented more thorough patent trolling.

China doesnt attract the talents of the world. No engineer of any type says "I wanna move and work in China"

There are some non-Chinese engineers working for China or even in China.
Some sold their soul to the Devil not knowing it was Devil before too late.
Others do not exactly want to work for China, but have to. Or else ...

 

[Subset6]

In other news.. Chinese have successfully landed humans on Mars, more at 11.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

China doesnt attract the talents of the world. No engineer of any type says "I wanna move and work in China". And until that happens, the Chinese will be stuck w/ only Chinese engineers who mostly think the same. Can they copy stuff? Sure. Can they innovate & lead in technology w/ thier current government, culture, and homegenity? No.

Lots of exaggerated rumors of progress and innovation, like "Deepseek", which turns out to be still generations behind what the West is doing.

This Western viewpoint seems so.....biased? Ignorant? I dont know exactly how to describe it.

Who do you think runs TSMC? The Taiwanese population is.....Chinese! They declared independence after the civil war, and whether Taiwan is part of China is still a major political debate, but what is straight up fact is that the engineers that drove and still drive TSMC, the leader in high tech nodes....are all ethnically Chinese.

This cope that "Oh the Chinese can only copy they cant innovate like us WESTERNERS" is why the Chinese have been able to steadily erode Western power around the globe and dominate manufacturing. China doesnt need engineers to move to China. They have 1.4 billion people and, unlike the West, they havent destroyed their education system pushing virtue signaling culture war BS. Every day they are catching up to, or exceeding, Western efforts.

And the irony of saying Deepseek is "generations behind" when Western "AI" is nothing more then scraped Google searches with tokens. Last year the cope was that China was decades away from having their own "AI", now we've moved to "well we're still ahead" and in another year the goalposts will move yet again to "oh well we have X feature so we're still ahead". We saw this with the production of automobiles, we saw this with the production of electronics, we saw this with media. Ne Zha 2, a domestic Chinese film, not only was more successful then any individual Western flick of 25, but has animation comparable to Disney in their prime.

It will be no different here. In 5 years we have gone from "China will never reverse engineer ASML" to "They've been taking apart the machines and breaking them" to now "Well they have a machine, but its patchwork and doesnt function!". In 2-3 years, we'll then hit "China is making its first wafers using ASML tech" then "China is now mass producing ASML wafers, but they're not as good as ours" and finally we'll hit "China can now mass produce ASML quality tech and is flooding the market". Eventually we'll hear about how ASML is nearly bankrupt and the taxpayer needs to fund them tot he tune of hundreds of billions to avoid yet another industry being controlled by China.

HUBRIS! That was the word! Western Hubris prevents the West from realizing what a threat to their global hegemony China truly is. That Hubris blinds them, makes us content that we will never lose the lead because we are the WEST, we can INNOVATE! And we'll ride that self-assured cope right into the grave, just like Russia believing they can solve any problem because they are RUSSIAN and therefore superior, right up until their flagship sits on the bottom of the black sea.

 

[Liranan]

They managed to "copy" western Patent Laws.
And invented more thorough patent trolling.


There are some non-Chinese engineers working for China or even in China.
Some sold their soul to the Devil not knowing it was Devil before too late.
Others do not exactly want to work for China, but have to. Or else ...

What does China have to do with everyone's favourite apartheid entity?

 

[Liranan]

This Western viewpoint seems so.....biased? Ignorant? I dont know exactly how to describe it.

Who do you think runs TSMC? The Taiwanese population is.....Chinese! They declared independence after the civil war, and whether Taiwan is part of China is still a major political debate, but what is straight up fact is that the engineers that drove and still drive TSMC, the leader in high tech nodes....are all ethnically Chinese.

This cope that "Oh the Chinese can only copy they cant innovate like us WESTERNERS" is why the Chinese have been able to steadily erode Western power around the globe and dominate manufacturing. China doesnt need engineers to move to China. They have 1.4 billion people and, unlike the West, they havent destroyed their education system pushing virtue signaling culture war BS. Every day they are catching up to, or exceeding, Western efforts.

And the irony of saying Deepseek is "generations behind" when Western "AI" is nothing more then scraped Google searches with tokens. Last year the cope was that China was decades away from having their own "AI", now we've moved to "well we're still ahead" and in another year the goalposts will move yet again to "oh well we have X feature so we're still ahead". We saw this with the production of automobiles, we saw this with the production of electronics, we saw this with media. Ne Zha 2, a domestic Chinese film, not only was more successful then any individual Western flick of 25, but has animation comparable to Disney in their prime.

It will be no different here. In 5 years we have gone from "China will never reverse engineer ASML" to "They've been taking apart the machines and breaking them" to now "Well they have a machine, but its patchwork and doesnt function!". In 2-3 years, we'll then hit "China is making its first wafers using ASML tech" then "China is now mass producing ASML wafers, but they're not as good as ours" and finally we'll hit "China can now mass produce ASML quality tech and is flooding the market". Eventually we'll hear about how ASML is nearly bankrupt and the taxpayer needs to fund them tot he tune of hundreds of billions to avoid yet another industry being controlled by China.

HUBRIS! That was the word! Western Hubris prevents the West from realizing what a threat to their global hegemony China truly is. That Hubris blinds them, makes us content that we will never lose the lead because we are the WEST, we can INNOVATE! And we'll ride that self-assured cope right into the grave, just like Russia believing they can solve any problem because they are RUSSIAN and therefore superior, right up until their flagship sits on the bottom of the black sea.

Why do you have to bring logic and facts into this thread? Don't you know that only war mongering propaganda is allowed?

 

[CaveDonkey]

Why do you have to bring logic and facts into this thread? Don't you know that only war mongering propaganda is allowed?

Pretty sure the only warmongering taking place is Xi threatening to invade Taiwan, an entirely different country and culture. China claiming Taiwanese semiconductor advancements is laughable.

 

[CaveDonkey]

This Western viewpoint seems so.....biased? Ignorant? I dont know exactly how to describe it.

Who do you think runs TSMC? The Taiwanese population is.....Chinese! They declared independence after the civil war, and whether Taiwan is part of China is still a major political debate, but what is straight up fact is that the engineers that drove and still drive TSMC, the leader in high tech nodes....are all ethnically Chinese.

Taiwan is an independent country, the communists never have and never will control Formosa. Innovation is part of their culture, they had no cultural revolution to destroy ancient Chinese identity. The cope is legendary.

 

[JMGuy]

This Western viewpoint seems so.....biased? Ignorant? I dont know exactly how to describe it.

Who do you think runs TSMC? The Taiwanese population is.....Chinese! They declared independence after the civil war, and whether Taiwan is part of China is still a major political debate, but what is straight up fact is that the engineers that drove and still drive TSMC, the leader in high tech nodes....are all ethnically Chinese.

This cope that "Oh the Chinese can only copy they cant innovate like us WESTERNERS" is why the Chinese have been able to steadily erode Western power around the globe and dominate manufacturing. China doesnt need engineers to move to China. They have 1.4 billion people and, unlike the West, they havent destroyed their education system pushing virtue signaling culture war BS. Every day they are catching up to, or exceeding, Western efforts.

And the irony of saying Deepseek is "generations behind" when Western "AI" is nothing more then scraped Google searches with tokens. Last year the cope was that China was decades away from having their own "AI", now we've moved to "well we're still ahead" and in another year the goalposts will move yet again to "oh well we have X feature so we're still ahead". We saw this with the production of automobiles, we saw this with the production of electronics, we saw this with media. Ne Zha 2, a domestic Chinese film, not only was more successful then any individual Western flick of 25, but has animation comparable to Disney in their prime.

It will be no different here. In 5 years we have gone from "China will never reverse engineer ASML" to "They've been taking apart the machines and breaking them" to now "Well they have a machine, but its patchwork and doesnt function!". In 2-3 years, we'll then hit "China is making its first wafers using ASML tech" then "China is now mass producing ASML wafers, but they're not as good as ours" and finally we'll hit "China can now mass produce ASML quality tech and is flooding the market". Eventually we'll hear about how ASML is nearly bankrupt and the taxpayer needs to fund them tot he tune of hundreds of billions to avoid yet another industry being controlled by China.

HUBRIS! That was the word! Western Hubris prevents the West from realizing what a threat to their global hegemony China truly is. That Hubris blinds them, makes us content that we will never lose the lead because we are the WEST, we can INNOVATE! And we'll ride that self-assured cope right into the grave, just like Russia believing they can solve any problem because they are RUSSIAN and therefore superior, right up until their flagship sits on the bottom of the black sea.

And your opinion isn’t ignorant or biased? Did you reread your own post before hitting submit? It sure doesn’t come off as objective.

This entire argument hinges on, what I read, as an unjustified assumption that China is inherently superior to the West—a flawed narrative from my perspective.

First off, Taiwan’s political status is not about ethnic identity—it's about governance. Nobody really cares about ethnicity in geopolitics—racism is inherent in every culture and is not typically a primary concern in global politics (there is a difference between what you say to the masses and what you say at the boardroom table).

Taiwan has its own democratic government, military, and sovereignty, which you conveniently ignore so that just seems to align with Chinese propaganda tropes already. Right, not biased. Pushing the narrative that Taiwan is "just part of China." It is not. The west recognizes Taiwan as independent. Taiwanese. Frankly, that’s just not up for debate. Taiwan has been independent since the Civil War, and that's the reality the U.S. chooses to accept—regardless of what China says (and they “say” a lot). China may attack Taiwan and change the scope but that potential only serves to prove the overarching point further.

Now, about TSMC and China’s rise: Yes, China is making strides in tech, but let’s not kid ourselves—this isn’t about innovation; it’s primarily about state-driven efforts to steal intellectual property. Taiwan’s success with TSMC is due to its freedom to innovate, something China generally lacks. When China "catches up," it’s more often than not because of forced technology transfers and intellectual theft—not original thought. You can’t credit China’s "innovation" when its standards are built on stolen blueprints and forced labor. In fact, it’s a perfect example—Taiwan’s policies generated innovation and China lags behind. They have to threaten their neighbor rather than accept the reality.

As for the so-called "Western hubris," China’s authoritarian model stifles true innovation. This is self-evident to pretty much anyone bothering to be objective. And what are you on about anyway? Your reductionist take on the complexity of global politics is just difficult to swallow outright.

Sure, push a narrative about how China is catching up. Doesn’t change the fact it’s still behind in many of the ways that matter to being capable of truly continuous innovation—something that is policy-driven, not something that can be stolen. The West still leads in crucial sectors precisely because it fosters open markets and freedom of expression. The results speak for themselves. China’s "success" will always be limited by its lack of these freedoms and will only change when they recognize this fact and build policy around it—something that is seemingly incompatible with their governance model.

So yes, China’s tech sector has grown, but it’s because of state control and exploitation, not real innovation. Until China learns to foster creativity and freedom, it will always be “catching up.”

I don’t expect to change your mind on any of this. Just calling out the hypocrisy of chastising other viewpoints for being biased while implying your own perspective is somehow virtuous and untainted. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[GeoffreyA]

This Western viewpoint seems so.....biased? Ignorant? I dont know exactly how to describe it.

Who do you think runs TSMC? The Taiwanese population is.....Chinese! They declared independence after the civil war, and whether Taiwan is part of China is still a major political debate, but what is straight up fact is that the engineers that drove and still drive TSMC, the leader in high tech nodes....are all ethnically Chinese.

This cope that "Oh the Chinese can only copy they cant innovate like us WESTERNERS" is why the Chinese have been able to steadily erode Western power around the globe and dominate manufacturing. China doesnt need engineers to move to China. They have 1.4 billion people and, unlike the West, they havent destroyed their education system pushing virtue signaling culture war BS. Every day they are catching up to, or exceeding, Western efforts.

And the irony of saying Deepseek is "generations behind" when Western "AI" is nothing more then scraped Google searches with tokens. Last year the cope was that China was decades away from having their own "AI", now we've moved to "well we're still ahead" and in another year the goalposts will move yet again to "oh well we have X feature so we're still ahead". We saw this with the production of automobiles, we saw this with the production of electronics, we saw this with media. Ne Zha 2, a domestic Chinese film, not only was more successful then any individual Western flick of 25, but has animation comparable to Disney in their prime.

It will be no different here. In 5 years we have gone from "China will never reverse engineer ASML" to "They've been taking apart the machines and breaking them" to now "Well they have a machine, but its patchwork and doesnt function!". In 2-3 years, we'll then hit "China is making its first wafers using ASML tech" then "China is now mass producing ASML wafers, but they're not as good as ours" and finally we'll hit "China can now mass produce ASML quality tech and is flooding the market". Eventually we'll hear about how ASML is nearly bankrupt and the taxpayer needs to fund them tot he tune of hundreds of billions to avoid yet another industry being controlled by China.

HUBRIS! That was the word! Western Hubris prevents the West from realizing what a threat to their global hegemony China truly is. That Hubris blinds them, makes us content that we will never lose the lead because we are the WEST, we can INNOVATE! And we'll ride that self-assured cope right into the grave, just like Russia believing they can solve any problem because they are RUSSIAN and therefore superior, right up until their flagship sits on the bottom of the black sea.

Well said. To some of us in the Global South, the Western-centred point of view, trying to run down China to make themselves feel more comfortable, is plain as day in these comments. China was around and at a high level of civilisation when many of today's countries didn't even exist.

 

[GeoffreyA]

And your opinion isn’t ignorant or biased? Did you reread your own post before hitting submit? It sure doesn’t come off as objective.

This entire argument hinges on, what I read, as an unjustified assumption that China is inherently superior to the West—a flawed narrative from my perspective.

First off, Taiwan’s political status is not about ethnic identity—it's about governance. Nobody really cares about ethnicity in geopolitics—racism is inherent in every culture and is not typically a primary concern in global politics (there is a difference between what you say to the masses and what you say at the boardroom table).

Taiwan has its own democratic government, military, and sovereignty, which you conveniently ignore so that just seems to align with Chinese propaganda tropes already. Right, not biased. Pushing the narrative that Taiwan is "just part of China." It is not. The west recognizes Taiwan as independent. Taiwanese. Frankly, that’s just not up for debate. Taiwan has been independent since the Civil War, and that's the reality the U.S. chooses to accept—regardless of what China says (and they “say” a lot). China may attack Taiwan and change the scope but that potential only serves to prove the overarching point further.

Now, about TSMC and China’s rise: Yes, China is making strides in tech, but let’s not kid ourselves—this isn’t about innovation; it’s primarily about state-driven efforts to steal intellectual property. Taiwan’s success with TSMC is due to its freedom to innovate, something China generally lacks. When China "catches up," it’s more often than not because of forced technology transfers and intellectual theft—not original thought. You can’t credit China’s "innovation" when its standards are built on stolen blueprints and forced labor. In fact, it’s a perfect example—Taiwan’s policies generated innovation and China lags behind. They have to threaten their neighbor rather than accept the reality.

As for the so-called "Western hubris," China’s authoritarian model stifles true innovation. This is self-evident to pretty much anyone bothering to be objective. And what are you on about anyway? Your reductionist take on the complexity of global politics is just difficult to swallow outright.

Sure, push a narrative about how China is catching up. Doesn’t change the fact it’s still behind in many of the ways that matter to being capable of truly continuous innovation—something that is policy-driven, not something that can be stolen. The West still leads in crucial sectors precisely because it fosters open markets and freedom of expression. The results speak for themselves. China’s "success" will always be limited by its lack of these freedoms and will only change when they recognize this fact and build policy around it—something that is seemingly incompatible with their governance model.

So yes, China’s tech sector has grown, but it’s because of state control and exploitation, not real innovation. Until China learns to foster creativity and freedom, it will always be “catching up.”

I don’t expect to change your mind on any of this. Just calling out the hypocrisy of chastising other viewpoints for being biased while implying your own perspective is somehow virtuous and untainted. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Some historical Chinese inventions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

 

[Megalomaniac]

China doesnt attract the talents of the world. No engineer of any type says "I wanna move and work in China". And until that happens, the Chinese will be stuck w/ only Chinese engineers who mostly think the same. Can they copy stuff? Sure. Can they innovate & lead in technology w/ thier current government, culture, and homegenity? No.

Lots of exaggerated rumors of progress and innovation, like "Deepseek", which turns out to be still generations behind what the West is doing.

I personally was a student in Fu Dan University. Had an apartment nearby. You don't know what you're talking about - beyond parroting right wing talking points.

China and India don't need to attract minds from around the world. They literally birth them.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

Taiwan is an independent country, the communists never have and never will control Formosa. Innovation is part of their culture, they had no cultural revolution to destroy ancient Chinese identity. The cope is legendary.

The best part of putting Taiwan in the argument is the people who immediately out themselves as not getting the argument.

And your opinion isn’t ignorant or biased? Did you reread your own post before hitting submit? It sure doesn’t come off as objective.

This entire argument hinges on, what I read, as an unjustified assumption that China is inherently superior to the West—a flawed narrative from my perspective.

First off, Taiwan’s political status is not about ethnic identity—it's about governance. Nobody really cares about ethnicity in geopolitics—racism is inherent in every culture and is not typically a primary concern in global politics (there is a difference between what you say to the masses and what you say at the boardroom table).

Taiwan has its own democratic government, military, and sovereignty, which you conveniently ignore so that just seems to align with Chinese propaganda tropes already. Right, not biased. Pushing the narrative that Taiwan is "just part of China." It is not. The west recognizes Taiwan as independent. Taiwanese. Frankly, that’s just not up for debate. Taiwan has been independent since the Civil War, and that's the reality the U.S. chooses to accept—regardless of what China says (and they “say” a lot). China may attack Taiwan and change the scope but that potential only serves to prove the overarching point further.

Now, about TSMC and China’s rise: Yes, China is making strides in tech, but let’s not kid ourselves—this isn’t about innovation; it’s primarily about state-driven efforts to steal intellectual property. Taiwan’s success with TSMC is due to its freedom to innovate, something China generally lacks. When China "catches up," it’s more often than not because of forced technology transfers and intellectual theft—not original thought. You can’t credit China’s "innovation" when its standards are built on stolen blueprints and forced labor. In fact, it’s a perfect example—Taiwan’s policies generated innovation and China lags behind. They have to threaten their neighbor rather than accept the reality.

As for the so-called "Western hubris," China’s authoritarian model stifles true innovation. This is self-evident to pretty much anyone bothering to be objective. And what are you on about anyway? Your reductionist take on the complexity of global politics is just difficult to swallow outright.

Sure, push a narrative about how China is catching up. Doesn’t change the fact it’s still behind in many of the ways that matter to being capable of truly continuous innovation—something that is policy-driven, not something that can be stolen. The West still leads in crucial sectors precisely because it fosters open markets and freedom of expression. The results speak for themselves. China’s "success" will always be limited by its lack of these freedoms and will only change when they recognize this fact and build policy around it—something that is seemingly incompatible with their governance model.

So yes, China’s tech sector has grown, but it’s because of state control and exploitation, not real innovation. Until China learns to foster creativity and freedom, it will always be “catching up.”

I don’t expect to change your mind on any of this. Just calling out the hypocrisy of chastising other viewpoints for being biased while implying your own perspective is somehow virtuous and untainted. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I never said China was inherently superior to the West. You dont understand the argument at ALL.

Claiming any region cannot innovate or compete is to be ignorant of the world at large. Thinking China can only copy is the blind elitism that has led America, and the West at large, to become dependent on China for nearly everything in their lives. I would prefer that not to happen, but Westerners are blind to how the world moves along.

Calling my takes "reductionist" while simultaneously arguing that the Chinese can only copy? You cant credit a country's improvements to stolen blueprints and forced labor? ROFLMAO. The hypocrisy is so thick you could cut it with a butterknife.

Yes, Chinese authoritarianism is a problem, despite that China is still making advancements and closing the gap with every passing day, I'm not sure why you're bringing it up like its a panacea to the whole argument. It doesnt change the fact that China is catching up and will one day surpass the West if they dont fix this problem very soon. Some may argue the cat is already out of the bag.

Being authoritarian didnt stop the Chinese from building new Gen IV nuclear plants, or dominating the EV market, or getting a rover to the moon. It's not gonna stop them from making wafers either. Slow them down? Certainly. But it wont stop them, and the sooner the West wakes up and realizes that the better.