Windows 11 bloat proves too much for Microsoft's new 8GB Surface Laptop

[trparky]

Yes, really.

Having drivers installed for different hardware does not cause RAM usage to increase. Unless those drivers are loaded, they do not take memory.

Anybody familiar with how operating systems knows that......

Correct.

Notice drivers and not how many of them are running and a lot of them are stopped. Stopped drivers aren't loaded and taking memory.

 

[Mercury Joe]

You're presuming a good faith failure on the part of management.

They're purposefully screwing up Windows installed the machine in order to sell you the agentic AI future where your "computer" is nothing more than an overgrown smartphone.

I blame the company as a whole. They want things released half baked because some spreadsheet tells them it is going to be the next big revenue stream or killer application.

I blame the management for scope drift. They have forgotten what the core product is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

I blame the programmers for being lazy.

Before you start on me about programming I wrote code for the Amiga. I had a whopping 12 MEGS of memory to work with in my A2000 machine that I used to write and compile on. I would then run on my bone stock A500 to measure performance. That was my standard of acceptable operation. Not what I have but what most people used. Before that I wrote things for an Apple II. That was even more fun to code on.

Bloat is a choice, not a standard.

 

[bandit8623]

That may be true for generic windows devices but it COULD be customized for their own hardware… they just didn’t bother… no need to have a bunch of useless drivers when it’s hardware you released and know exactly what drivers are required

thats storage space not memory usage. windows doesnt just load drivers for stuff thats not installed into memory. when device manager shows a device then the kernal loads the driver for that said device. honestly this is one area windows is efficient. -edit I originally read your comment wrong and now im blabbing on

 

[toooooot]

Try searching for Tiny11 - you might be pleasantly surprised

I do not need to anymore. I sold the laptop and can afford to run all of the
Windows bloatware the new one now

 

[OortCloud]

Windows has become such an embarrassment.

 

[airbornex]

Task Manager showing 6.7 out of 7.6GB used at idle is the real headline. That's not an operating system, that's a roommate who never leaves and eats all your snacks.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

Task Manager showing 6.7 out of 7.6GB used at idle is the real headline. That's not an operating system, that's a roommate who never leaves and eats all your snacks.

It's awful. All.our machines at work are 8gb, since management wanted to spend as little as possible. I cannot even begin to calculate how much productivity we lose waiting for these machines to do anything.

 

[p51d007]

Windows needs to go on a DIET!
Maybe a GLP-1 software solution is in the future?

 

[daffy duck]

Issue is that windows has to be booated because if the hardware and software it supports. If you start cutting it back you risk of breaking things

There are many ways to debloat Windows 11 without breaking anything. It's best to do this with a fresh install that already has the useless GB's of crap removed rather than un install after the fact. Tiny11 would be a great distro for this gimped Surface

 

[Watzupken]

It is quite puzzling why Microsoft even release a PC with just 8GB of RAM to begin with. It seems like the hardware division is clearly disconnected from the state of the operating system from the same company. While it is known for most tech companies to try and ape Apple's products, they should at least assess whether it makes sense or not from an end user standpoint.

 

[Axeia]

No it doesn’t. As a family of OS’s it might after you’ve spent hours customizing it but even then it doesn’t come close to the hardware and software compatibility of windows. And the versions that run on 4GB support even less

You can argue against Linux for some things but that's some bad takes.

Where Windows hardware support is spread out over different versions and you need Win98SE to use your 1998 flatbad scanner because drivers were never released for later versions under Linux it just works. Sometimes for the very latest hardware support isn't there yet but basically anything 1year+ works great.

Software wise wen you're limited to 4GB a minimalist desktop environment under Linux is a much more pleasant experience than some super trimmed down windows version. In neither case are you going to be super productive but I'll take linux with the Xfce desktop environment over Windows on 4GB any day.

Becaure of the amount of hardware and software that runs though it.

It really doesn't have to be as bloated as it is, hence there being debloating scripts available that can cut down on memory usage without it affecting functionality. Heck, even Microsoft acknowledges this as they added 'XBox Mode' which will trim down the background services somewhat.

The really aggressive scripts will disable some features that might affect some rarely used functionality which may or may not lead to issues depending on what you do on the PC

It’s not just drivers? It’s all the APIs and backend that has to be supported for billions of different hardware configurations with millions of different software requirements. It’s not MacOS which supports 10 years of 6 product lines or Linux which supports nothing until the users manually install everything themselves.

I can tell your Linux experience is lacking. The only things you need to do manually yourself are those that due to licensing cannot be included. Like the NVIDIA drivers and certain codecs.
Even then, some distros will make that as painless as possible where all you need to do is click a button or pre-download certain things yourself.

But that old scanner, that weird plotter, that old but still good laser printer? They all work without manually installing anything whilst under Windows there's no drivers available and the generic ones don't work.

Not out of the box it doesn’t. What’s support like for Nvidia GPUs on Linux like again?

Pretty good actually, especially older cards that NVIDIA dropped support for themselves under Windows. Got a really old laptop with NVIDIA gfx that runs fine under Linux whilst under Windows there's no drivers available and by default it craps out on some super low resolution.

Last I tried manually installing drivers for a more modern card it worked fine as well. "Mint" makes it super easy to do so even. There's no software limitation preventing it from working out of the box, it's a licensing problem.

 

[BobHome]

"According to The Verge, 8GB of memory works mostly fine for basic tasks such as web browsing, text editing, and video streaming on YouTube and other streaming platforms."

So, for this workload and that money, buy two Chromebooks???

 

[Vanderlinde]

They need Atlas OS.

 

[LordVile95]

You can argue against Linux for some things but that's some bad takes.

Where Windows hardware support is spread out over different versions and you need Win98SE to use your 1998 flatbad scanner because drivers were never released for later versions under Linux it just works. Sometimes for the very latest hardware support isn't there yet but basically anything 1year+ works great.

Comparability modes are a thing and most things on Linux don’t “just work”.

Software wise wen you're limited to 4GB a minimalist desktop environment under Linux is a much more pleasant experience than some super trimmed down windows version. In neither case are you going to be super productive but I'll take linux with the Xfce desktop environment over Windows on 4GB any day.

Until you have to get actual work done and then you find out that the software you need doesn’t support Linux.

It really doesn't have to be as bloated as it is, hence there being debloating scripts available that can cut down on memory usage without it affecting functionality. Heck, even Microsoft acknowledges this as they added 'XBox Mode' which will trim down the background services somewhat.

Which might work for some people but not all. “Xbox mode” doesn’t really do much aside from change the UI to be controller friendly

The really aggressive scripts will disable some features that might affect some rarely used functionality which may or may not lead to issues depending on what you do on the PC


I can tell your Linux experience is lacking. The only things you need to do manually yourself are those that due to licensing cannot be included. Like the NVIDIA drivers and certain codecs.

Yeah the graphics manufacturer with a 92% market share requires you have to manually install everything yourself and even then performance isn’t likely to be good or the system trouble free . That’s not a pain at all. How about things like the Xbox wireless controller adapter?

Even then, some distros will make that as painless as possible where all you need to do is click a button or pre-download certain things yourself.

Which are flatpaks and take up massive amounts of storage, are heavier on RAM, require libraries to be constantly updated or they break plus other issues.

But that old scanner, that weird plotter, that old but still good laser printer? They all work without manually installing anything whilst under Windows there's no drivers available and the generic ones don't work.

You mean all the things that you can’t get parts or ink for?

Pretty good actually, especially older cards that NVIDIA dropped support for themselves under Windows. Got a really old laptop with NVIDIA gfx that runs fine under Linux whilst under Windows there's no drivers available and by default it craps out on some super low resolution.

You’re not really making a case if you’re trying to use ewaste as an example.

Last I tried manually installing drivers for a more modern card it worked fine as well. "Mint" makes it super easy to do so even. There's no software limitation preventing it from working out of the box, it's a licensing problem.

I can guarantee you something will go wrong with it if you run it daily.

 

[LordVile95]

There are many ways to debloat Windows 11 without breaking anything. It's best to do this with a fresh install that already has the useless GB's of crap removed rather than un install after the fact. Tiny11 would be a great distro for this gimped Surface

Without breaking things for some people, not all.

 

[LordVile95]

You should take your own advice

Read the rest of the comments. I see people dunking on you for not knowing what you are talking about and you REEEing in response.

Linux fanboys are quite deluded aren’t they.

Yes, out of the box it does. Linux's open source Nvidia driver works perfectly fine for booting the system, browsing the web, everything but 3d gaming and productivity. Just like the default windows driver.

They’re somewhat functional but better than they used to be isn’t “perfectly fine”. There’s still tons of issues.

You clearly haven't tried Linux in at least 10 years given how out of date your frame of reference is here.

I mean I’ve just installed SteamOS to watch how much of a dumpster fire it is. I normally install a version of Linux once a year to see if it’s actually gotten useable or not before pointing out its flaws.

Features and functions like what? List some specifics. What are these tie ins that didn't exist before?

It depends which version you’re comparing it to.

Also, active memory usage as listed in performance monitor is not RAM allocation.

Nope, the programs ask for more RAM than they can actually run on and that’s listed. They also put data into RAM that really doesn’t need to be there and could just be on the page file

 

[Taroo]

Microsoft is discovering that the success of the Macbook Neo was not due only to the hardware.

 

[ZedRM]

This is why removing bloat from a Windows install is so important.

Microsoft is discovering that the success of the Macbook Neo was not due only to the hardware.

Excellent point!

 

[Jack77]

I do not need to anymore. I sold the laptop and can afford to run all of the
Windows bloatware the new one now

Did the same a good year ago. I now have 32GB RAM to make sure I can do office work with many apps and tabs open, plus MS Teams. A shame. But alas. I was lucky to be able to afford myself a new laptop - even if it was pity to replace my otherwise fine original laptop. Many others are stuck with what their IT department supplies...

 

[gamerk2]

Nope, the programs ask for more RAM than they can actually run on and that’s listed. They also put data into RAM that really doesn’t need to be there and could just be on the page file

Do you even know what the Page File is? Because this comment very much implies you do not.

All the Page File is is extra space where data currently in RAM gets moved to when another active process needs to allocate memory but there isn't enough space to complete the allocation. So data in RAM for a non-running process gets written to the Page File in order to free up space in RAM to complete the allocation. Windows reads/writes to the Page File in the background as necessary; it's not something you actively write to. Ideally you never need to use it (especially for large data groups) since even on SSDs reading/writing to the hard drive is slow relative to RAM read/write access times.

 

[gamerk2]

Microsoft has zero incentive to create a lightweight, consumer focused OS now. I estimate most of the userbase would not move out of the way if they saw pee coming at their face from redmond. They're just happy to have it.

Eh, they are loosing share, and they desperately to regain ground in the server market, so there is pressure there to overhaul Windows resource usage. The underlying problem is Windows is the best OS in terms of offering backed-in support for minor features that a very small minority of people actually need. That's great for those groups, but does mean a lot of extra tasks each taking its own amount of overhead, which adds up.

I also think the more modern applications within Windows hurts it a lot; using modern APIs (late .net and whatever the modern replacement is these days) inherently add more overhead then the raw Windows APIs we used back in the 9x days, which fundamentally increases your baseline requirements.

 

[penfolduk]

Google Chrome browser is a known memory hog.

Did you try it with Edge?
Also, hangs can be due to network activity. And with all the phoning home W11 does, wouldn't be surprised if that's a bigger issue than memory.

 

[Axeia]

Comparability modes are a thing and most things on Linux don’t “just work”.

They don't work for drivers, if you can even find the old windows driver at this point have fun trying to install drivers in combability mode.

For software it's a clutch solution that sometimes work, I've mainly needed it for old games in which case it more often than not doesn't work. Luckily there's other non-MS solutions like DOSBox or just repurchasing it on GoG if it's on there.
Don't really blame Windows for that, things do have to move on at some point, can't eternally support everything forever. Haven't a need to run really old things under Linux tbh, the software I want to use under Linux typically being opensource usually means someone else has taken it upon themselves to keep it updated.

Until you have to get actual work done and then you find out that the software you need doesn’t support Linux.

If it's actual work you figure that out ahead of time.

If you just want to get stuff done, bit odd expecting to use the same software on a different OS. Otherwise I start from the angle of using software for the OS that does the task you want to do rather than insisting on using the Windows thing on the wrong OS.
If the roles were reversed I wouldn't start with trying the Linux application under Windows, that's just a weird way to go about it.

I'm mainly kept on Windows because I'm used to Visual Studio. I wouldn't try to get that run under Linux if I moved the main desktop over to it, I'd simply use an alternative like JetBrains Rider or Eclipse.

Props to MS/Windows for WSL(2) though, the few things I used Linux on the desktop for I can now just do within 'Linux' under Windows.

For the home server that I just want to work 24/7 without having to micromanage it, LTS Linux is the way to go. I limit what gets installed to the bare necessities for what I need and it just runs 24/7 without software nagging about updates. No bloat, just a lean install (and somehow I always have less issues configuring windows networking under Linux than I do under windows, go figure).

Which might work for some people but not all. “Xbox mode” doesn’t really do much aside from change the UI to be controller friendly

It's a work in a progress and a step in the right direction. It does kill off some unneeded background processes so the OS can focus on, well... being an OS. Staying out of the way so that the software that you use it for runs as well as it can. It kills off some background processes to free up resources for gaming.

XBox OS is just a lean Windows after all so they'll probably work towards converging the two at some point to save themselves the effort of maintaining two but similar operating systems (like how ChromeOS and Android are merging).

Yeah the graphics manufacturer with a 92% market share requires you have to manually install everything yourself and even then performance isn’t likely to be good or the system trouble free . That’s not a pain at all. How about things like the Xbox wireless controller adapter?

Can't really blame Linux for NVIDIA's licensing and NVIDIA not taking the effort (although things are improving rapidly).
I don't have any experience with the XBox wireless controller, I'm old fashioned and the mouse/keyboard/headset/controller are all wired because keeping things charged is a bigger bother to me than having to deal with a wire. From what I can Google it can at least be made to work which is more than I can say from a bunch of old hardware I have where I'm just SOL with a modern Windows version... old drivers are incompatible, there's no alternatives available and nothing can be configured to make it work.

Which are flatpaks and take up massive amounts of storage, are heavier on RAM, require libraries to be constantly updated or they break plus other issues.

flatpaks are a mixed blessing. If you want to keep things lean, simply don't use them.

You mean all the things that you can’t get parts or ink for?

Scanner just works, always has - no need for parts. Everything else is available just fine, refillable by design even - from an era before companies tried to squeeze you in every way possible.

You’re not really making a case if you’re trying to use ewaste as an example.

It's ewaste when it can't be used or doesn't fulfill a purpose.

Old scanner - better quality (even on the fast speed) and easier to use than messing about with a smartphone app. Just as usable and the same level of quality as the scanners on a modern all in one printer, not really a market that has or had a need to innovate for decades it seems.

I can guarantee you something will go wrong with it if you run it daily.

My experience has been sporadic as I'm not loyal to AMD or NVIDIA and switch it up every now and then but I haven't had a problem with either one during daily use. Heck, home server ran an NVIDIA card for years without a single issue to do video transcoding.

The only issues I've had is when I had very new graphics hardware ages ago (as in, within the first few months of release).

With the graphics card prices nowadays I've no interest in the latest and greatest, I'll buy from an older generation and the used market so I've no recent experience.
However, from what I've been told AMD just works out of the box on day one. NVIDIA afaik is still a bit iffy if you get the very latest as soon as it's available although now that AI is their main thing they can't really get around having to support Linux.

 

[hwertz]

Not really.

No it doesn’t. As a family of OS’s it might after you’ve spent hours customising it but even then it doesn’t come close to the hardware and software compatibility of windows. And the versions that run on 4GB support even less

Becaure of the amount of hardware and software that runs though it.

Yes it does. You're also considering Windows as as family of OSes, there's loads of hardware without Win11 drivers that driver Linux not only still support but the drivers still get patches and improvements now and then.

 

[hwertz]

Comparability modes are a thing and most things on Linux don’t “just work”.

Until you have to get actual work done and then you find out that the software you need doesn’t support Linux.

Which might work for some people but not all. “Xbox mode” doesn’t really do much aside from change the UI to be controller friendly

Yeah the graphics manufacturer with a 92% market share requires you have to manually install everything yourself and even then performance isn’t likely to be good or the system trouble free . That’s not a pain at all. How about things like the Xbox wireless controller adapter?

Which are flatpaks and take up massive amounts of storage, are heavier on RAM, require libraries to be constantly updated or they break plus other issues.

You mean all the things that you can’t get parts or ink for?

You’re not really making a case if you’re trying to use ewaste as an example.

I can guarantee you something will go wrong with it if you run it daily.

Now you're just trolling and making stuff up. A) Of course most things on Linux just work. B) I've found on the cointrary, if I were using Windows I'd be running most of my stuff in WSL anyway, my software largely doesn'tr have Windows ports. C) Are you going on about Nvidia cards? I have one, on first boot Ubuntu popped up a driver manager and I clicked 'next' to install the nvidia driver. Why do you think the performance wouldn't be good or trouble free? Nvidia has excellent drivers. And finally. after you falsely claim Windows has broader driver support and people give couinterexamples you dismiss it as using ewaste. Guess what, the device in question is ewaste for a windows user and a nice scanner for a linux user. I'm perfectly fine to get some cheap or free hardware that people like yourself consider junk because of tyour OS of choice lack of driver support.