Car Tech Singapore's first Tesla Model S owner hit with $11,000 fine for excessive emissions

MannerMauler

Posts: 213   +55
It is illegal to urinate in elevators
Obviously everyone hates an elevator that smells like urine, but Singapore officials really hate it. Some elevators are equipped with Urine Detection Devices. These UDDs can actually detect urine odor in elevators, which set off an alarm. Once this alarm goes off, the doors of the elevator close until the police arrive and arrest the perpetrator.

I'd feel bad for any innocent bystanders who get stuck in the elevator with any sicko who breaks this law.
 

Kraemepoo

Posts: 50   +25
"And because of oil extraction, distribution, and refining, approximately 25% more has to be added on top of that to calculate the real carbon footprint of gas-powered cars"
Fair enough, but don't forget to apply manufacturing factors to every power source, from oil and coal to wind and solar, and while we're at it, don't forget to apply the C02 correction to the manufacture of the Tesla vs a gas-powered car.
 

Technician

Posts: 677   +115
"And because of oil extraction, distribution, and refining, approximately 25% more has to be added on top of that to calculate the real carbon footprint of gas-powered cars"
Fair enough, but don't forget to apply manufacturing factors to every power source, from oil and coal to wind and solar, and while we're at it, don't forget to apply the C02 correction to the manufacture of the Tesla vs a gas-powered car.
You are arguing that an electric vehicle is a worse polluter than an ICE vehicle?
 

Ivangela

Posts: 21   +4
I haven't read anything this idi0tic for a long time...

LTA = Lunatics Association.

Someone should put them on a $10,000 band for all the CO2 they generate farting.


It's good to see at least one government not mowed down by environmentalist. Electric is far from emission free and the batteries are not yet recyclable. Go ahead and feel good about no tail pipe, but your not high and mighty just because you can afford an electric car.
"you're" not "your"
Why do you think people who care about the environment feel superior?
I pay for wind energy? It's really not that much more? Imagine the emissions reduction if I had an electric car?
 

Weapon

Posts: 6   +3
Wow, never thought I'd see something like this happen. I'm not some tree hugging hippy but I think that electric cars are just a way for people to feel better about themselves. This might kick some sense into people and make them realize that they're not really preventing pollution unless they're getting power from green power plants, such as nuclear (not totally sure if they're green based on what happens because of meltdowns), solar, or hydro power plants.

Actually, this article shows more of an issue in the education system in Singapore more than the pollution issue. Since they somehow managed to get 444wh/km consumption, something no one is able to get outside of a race track going over 100mph. This shows someone clearly messed up at math.

There is nothing wrong with calculating overall emissions, but the important thing about calculating emissions is doing proper math. Cause someone royally messed up.
 

Weapon

Posts: 6   +3
I don't know about those numbers, I have no way to prove one way or another but the concept makes sense. A lot of place still burn coal to generate electricity to power businesses and homes. If that is equivalent emissions to generate the electricity to charge that car then yeah... this seems fair. A lot of the whole "green" movement with electric cars tends to forget where the electricity comes from in the first place. This would vary greatly as some places generate it with hydroelectric dams, nuclear, or solar all of which are mostly considered "green".

The majority of Singapore's power comes from natural gas.

The issue here is not about being charged for emissions but the 444wh/km number they got for consumption which is impossible to replicate outside of going over 100mph on a track.

I also don't think anyone is forgetting where the electricity comes from.
 

Weapon

Posts: 6   +3
It's good to see at least one government not mowed down by environmentalist. Electric is far from emission free and the batteries are not yet recyclable. Go ahead and feel good about no tail pipe, but your not high and mighty just because you can afford an electric car.

No one said anything about it being emission free, the issue is in their wh/km calculation that can't be replicated anywhere in the world.

Also, the batteries are recyclable with multiple recycling facilities around the world. Umicore and Kinsbursky Brothers are some example of those with lithium ion recycling facilities. Tesla will also have their own inside the gigafactory.
 

Weapon

Posts: 6   +3
It's pretty hard to find a power plant with better than 40% efficiency. There is loss in the power transmission and loss from the charging system and loss as heat from the battery and the motor itself. Burning fuel directly in the car losses energy through heat loss only (diesels get better mileage because less energy is lost to heat.) There are many fewer losses of power with an fuel burning car.

2 clueless comments in 1 post! grats!

An average natural gas powerplant in the US has 42% efficiency. A brand new natural gas powerplant has 60-61% efficiency.

Transmission loss in the US is about 6% on average. Lately it has been about 5%. In a small country like Singapore transmission loss is 2%. The loss from the charging system is only about 9-15%. The loss on the battery is 1-3%, and loss on the motor about 8-12%.

But you also recover energy back via regenerative braking.

Sorry, losses in fuel are FAR more than that. You have losses during refining, losses during distribution, evaporative losses, and heating losses (which are HUGE, due to the engine being made for mobility, not for efficiency). It should also be noted that unlike powerplants which run at peak efficiency. Car engines rarely run at peak efficiency, and suffer from idle losses.

Overall, an ICE car is no where close to the efficiency of an EV.
 

Weapon

Posts: 6   +3
"And because of oil extraction, distribution, and refining, approximately 25% more has to be added on top of that to calculate the real carbon footprint of gas-powered cars"
Fair enough, but don't forget to apply manufacturing factors to every power source, from oil and coal to wind and solar, and while we're at it, don't forget to apply the C02 correction to the manufacture of the Tesla vs a gas-powered car.

Plenty of studies have been done on this. Most notable was the KIA study which is the only study which did full lifecycle cradle to grave and got a UL certification.

Overall ICE outputted almost 50% more CO2.
 
Not very surprised . . . I pity those poor souls who live in such a totalitarian state that suck up every dollar you make. You have to be a zillionaire to enjoy any sort of life in Singapore. . . . even a Toyota Prius cost $154,000.
 
I don't know about those numbers, I have no way to prove one way or another but the concept makes sense. A lot of place still burn coal to generate electricity to power businesses and homes. If that is equivalent emissions to generate the electricity to charge that car then yeah... this seems fair. A lot of the whole "green" movement with electric cars tends to forget where the electricity comes from in the first place. This would vary greatly as some places generate it with hydroelectric dams, nuclear, or solar all of which are mostly considered "green".

It makes sense and it doesn't make sense. They are factoring in the emissions from producing the electricity not just the emissions from the car. Well in that case, why don't they also factor in the emissions from producing gasoline from crude oil? How far back do they go, factor in the emissions from extracting coal for electricity or crude oil for gasoline from the ground? Emissions from transporting the fuel before it's used? It has to get ridiculous at some point.
 

Scshadow

Posts: 641   +299
lot of places are talking about a 'carbon tax', you generate emissions, you pay the tax, and you know who in the end will really pay
Yes the customer ultimately pays. The business has to operate on a profit to stay alive. But when the electric company passes on the charge to the consumer, the fine is proportional to usage. They are fining this guy based on wild speculation and guesstimation. Is everyone who is currently consuming electricity, are they being fined? I'm going to presume its just this guy cause he bought an electric car and no one else did. And believe it or not, the heat a company faces from rate increases does provide some motivation to reduce their overhead and in this situation, the emissions become overhead.
 
Wow, never thought I'd see something like this happen. I'm not some tree hugging hippy but I think that electric cars are just a way for people to feel better about themselves. This might kick some sense into people and make them realize that they're not really preventing pollution unless they're getting power from green power plants, such as nuclear (not totally sure if they're green based on what happens because of meltdowns), solar, or hydro power plants.

Electric cars will definitely make you feel better about yourself. There's no way around that feeling... because they save you time and money over any gas engine car. You never have to go to a gas station because your home is your gas station. You tank gets full every night while you sleep for about 40 cents per day. Electric per mile is like a penny compared to gas. You can even use solar power to charge up your car in some places. No oil changes. High torque, no normal car can pull like an electric car. Some people may have both gas and electric but No one who has purchased a true performance electric car will chose to get rid of it unless they are upgrading to a better electric car.
 
Wow, never thought I'd see something like this happen. I'm not some tree hugging hippy but I think that electric cars are just a way for people to feel better about themselves. This might kick some sense into people and make them realize that they're not really preventing pollution unless they're getting power from green power plants, such as nuclear (not totally sure if they're green based on what happens because of meltdowns), solar, or hydro power plants.

Electric cars are not just a way for people to "feel better about themselves". Did you not read in this article how, even with the way that electricity is being produced today, that this vehicle still has a much smaller carbon footprint than a comparable gas engine model? With the potential to have an even smaller carbon footprint as the means to produce electricity becomes greener. So yes, they actually are preventing pollution. Read the article again, without first trying to filter it with your bias, and you will come to a different conclusion.
 

Adhmuz

Posts: 2,117   +922
Fines run up to $1,000 for littering
It is illegal to litter in many countries, but the punishments for doing it in Singapore are without comparison.

Not only can you get as much as a $1,000 fine, litterers receive "community work orders," where they are forced to pick up trash in public. The punishment is intended to publicly embarrass convicted litterers.

If people littering is a problem in your city, make the fines harsh enough to discourage it completely. Public shaming is often the best way to discourage people.

It is illegal to urinate in elevators
Obviously everyone hates an elevator that smells like urine, but Singapore officials really hate it. Some elevators are equipped with Urine Detection Devices. These UDDs can actually detect urine odor in elevators, which set off an alarm. Once this alarm goes off, the doors of the elevator close until the police arrive and arrest the perpetrator.

This is something I see no problem with having a law for, it's absolutely disgusting to think people are wiping it out for a wee in the lifts, so yes arrest people for doing that.

Selling chewing gum is forbidden
The Asian country takes cleanliness seriously, and apparently gum causes too much of a mess to be sold in the country. This doesn't mean that you can't bring a little with you — just make sure you don't spit it on the floor, otherwise you can face a hefty fine.

But after strong petitioning by Wrigley, if you get a note from a doctor you can chew certain medicinal gums.

Like the littering problem, if people are too stupid not to spit their gum anywhere they please, stick it to something, then yeah, implement fines to try and prevent the people from doing it.

No pornography of any kind is allowed
There is a lot of censorship in Singapore, and this includes the ban on pornography in all forms, from pictures to DVDs. Magazines that discuss sex, like Cosmopolitan, are allowed, but require special "parental warnings" on their covers.

This is a little absurd, and I have no idea how that could be enforced, do they have inspectors come door to door? Obviously there are no "sex shops" but the internet is what it is, other than banning the .xxx sites as a whole I don't see that being 100% effective.

You can get fined for not flushing public toilets
There is clearly a trend in Singapore about keeping things clean, and this extends to the bathroom as well.

If you're caught failing to flush a public toilet after using it, you can expect a fine of around $150. There do not appear to be detectors like there are for elevator urination, but apparently police officials have been known to check.

I'm sorry but if you don't flush a public toilet you should get canned, don't be a filthy animal, if you are you should be beaten like one.

It is illegal to walk around your house naked
Singapore culture is intent on prohibiting many personal rights, the government reason for which is that it creates harmony in a conservative and culturally diverse country.

Thus, you can't walk around your house naked, according to Singapore law, because it is considered a form of pornography, but it is unclear how a law like this is enforced.

So what happens when your naked with your wife about to have sex and you get caught? Do you get fined or let off with a warning? Could you offer to let the official in on the action or would that be bribery? This one I'm not sure of, what about public showers?

Do not spit anywhere
Along with throwing cigarette butts on the street, spitting is banned in Singapore. As with similar prohibitions, these laws are in place to maintain Singapore's reputation for cleanliness.

Both infractions come with significant fines and are routinely enforced.

Well people are not camels last I checked, so spitting everywhere we go is not required, maybe people in Singapore chew a lot of tobacco and that created a problem, like the previous laws, this was put in place to keep the city from getting disgusting. Perfectly understandable again, people can be slobs, this curves that.

If you graffiti, you will get caned
Respect for public property is taken seriously in Singapore, so it should be no surprise that vandalism is really despised — so much so that if you are caught vandalizing, you will receive a mandatory caning.

No problem here again, simply don't graffiti, there's no need for it, your defacing someone's property, be punished for it.

Some of the laws mentioned seem a little overkill, but I'm sure if you were in the city before these laws were passed it would be devastatingly clear why these laws needed to be implemented. The urinating in elevators is by far the worst problem that needed to be addressed, ever ride an elevator that a bum has urinated in? It's a horrible ride.

Much like this Tesla owner is being taken for, however, there is a point to be made somewhere, the emissions free theory is not 100% true, something anyone intelligent person will realize and understand. The electricity has to come from somewhere, and unless you can without a doubt prove that it's coming from a renewable source your not 100% emissions free. I'm amazed it took Singapore to show this to the world.
 
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Technician

Posts: 677   +115
I don't think anyone ever said the production of electricity is emissions free, only the operation of the car. But if charged off batteries that are, in turn recharged off solar, or plugged directly into your solar array's controller, then the production becomes emissions free.
As for the production of the vehicle, its about the same as any vehicle right down to the trucks used to bring the food the workers eat from the fields to the dpacking plant, to the distribution center, and on to the store. The savings start when the motor is operating. People also seem to forget about all the energy used and emissions produced in gasoline production and transport.
 
This is interesting, but not entirely bad news. Once you are required to pay such a fee you become a stakeholder. Stakeholders have power to demand change. That change will be the shift away from Coal to solar power.

I'd say this is unfortunate for the car owner, but also a way to accelerate the move away from coal at the policy level. Sneaky, but it will ensure further change.
 
If you buy a car in Singapore, electric or not, you deserve to be taxed heavily. Nobody in Singapore truly needs a car as the country is only the size of Chicago and public transport is excellent.

Singapore is not the US. You don't need a car to get around. If you have one, it is a luxury good and not a need.

Also, Singapore is not totalitarian just because the government taxes car owners heavily. It has a population density of 8000 people per square kilometre. The US only has 35 people per square kilometre. Let's not even talk about the environment. Imagine what will happen to traffic if every single person in the country has a car.
 
I don't know about those numbers, I have no way to prove one way or another but the concept makes sense. A lot of place still burn coal to generate electricity to power businesses and homes. If that is equivalent emissions to generate the electricity to charge that car then yeah... this seems fair. A lot of the whole "green" movement with electric cars tends to forget where the electricity comes from in the first place. This would vary greatly as some places generate it with hydroelectric dams, nuclear, or solar all of which are mostly considered "green".

If you are going to consider the emissions of the power plants generating the electricity that drives electric cars then it follows that you must consider the emissions of the process that gets fuel to your local gas station. I haven't researched this, but I'd make a sizable bet that the emissions produced in all phases are dramatically reduced with electric vehicles.
 
Wow, never thought I'd see something like this happen. I'm not some tree hugging hippy but I think that electric cars are just a way for people to feel better about themselves. This might kick some sense into people and make them realize that they're not really preventing pollution unless they're getting power from green power plants, such as nuclear (not totally sure if they're green based on what happens because of meltdowns), solar, or hydro power plants.

Electric cars are not just a way for people to "feel better about themselves". Did you not read in this article how, even with the way that electricity is being produced today, that this vehicle still has a much smaller carbon footprint than a comparable gas engine model? With the potential to have an even smaller carbon footprint as the means to produce electricity becomes greener. So yes, they actually are preventing pollution. Read the article again, without first trying to filter it with your bias, and you will come to a different conclusion.


And compared to taking the train? How much more pollutants are spewed because you use an electric car as opposed to taking public transport. Maybe in the US a car is a necessity in certain areas. But a car is definitely a luxury good in Singapore as public transport is excellent. Nguyen is CHOOSING to pollute because there are better alternatives in the country. So the tax is justified.
 

3volv3d

Posts: 323   +144
In a few years we will move on from power plants to power trees and power forests, which will bring much more efficient.... What plants make green power. I'm sorry all the fumes from the Tesla done made me dumb