AMD 64 or Dual XEON

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Which would you go with? Also I'm partial to MSI, Asus and GigaByte motherboards.
I like games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon. I do a lot of MP3's and I plan on getting the MSI nBox FX5900 Video card.
I want to keep it low priced sinse I'm getting such an expensive video card.

Thnx.
Jeff
 
I would still get a AthlonXP... AMD64's are still to new and expensive, and Dual XEON's are wayyyyyyyyyy to expensive and will not give you any noticiable improvements in gaming.

Untill amd64's get established, if you really want a dual cpu system, get a Dual Athlon MP one, they are far cheaper.
 
I would go for the Dual System right now. It will stand you better in the long run, I think. When its time for everyone to start getting AMD64s, you will know.

XEONs have loads of cache and run just great, a Dual system will OK, fair enough not get fully exploited until you run an application which is SMP aware, but you'll still notice things running a lot sweeter, believe me.

Be aware, though, that a Dual XEON processor motherboard will undoubtedly take ECC RAM, and only ECC. You will likely have to buy new memory as well.
 
I've installed operating systems on a couple of dual XEON processor machines at work.... they also had 4GB RAM each as well, which was nice. Anyway, I also ran them with 512MB and they were still sweet as hell.
 
For playing games, there is simply no need for Dual XEON's. Dual processors in principal are not designed for gaming at all (as game developers simply do not write the code for them)...and XEON Cpu's are also simply not designed for gaming applications, and the performance increases over a simple Pentium4 processor would be minimal...if at all.

Certainly an Athlon64 is about the best you can get at the moment when it comes to gaming, coupled with some decent PC3200 memory with tight timings (such as Corsair PC3200LL), you will not find any better...unless of course you are willing to spend £750 on an Athlon FX :blackeye:

As for graphics card, i could not stress how much i would urge you to get the 9800Pro over the 5900.

...while they are neck and neck in current games (DX7/8), up and coming games, such as Half Life 2 have shown the 9800Pro to be far superior to anything Nvidia has to offer....with even the 9600Pro (costing a mere £120) beating the 5900Ultra.

...Aside from this, Nvidia have come under alot of steptical press over recent driver sets, and their "optimisations"...put into detail here:

Driver Heaven Aquamark Comparison

Here is a quote:
Alot of negative publicity is currently surrounding Nvidia, and here at driverheaven we like to remain as impartial and open minded as we possibly can, but after reading all the articles recently such as here coming from good sources and experiencing this ourselves first hand, I can no longer recommend an nvidia card to anyone. Ill be speaking with nvidia about this over the coming days and if I can make anything public I will.

So...to some up, i think an Athlon64/9800Pro combination is going to be about the best you can get at the moment.

Cucumber
 
The Inquirer ...

Prescott to be slower than P4 Extreme Edition?

IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS since Intel cheese Paul Otellini told an IDF that megahertz no longer mattered. Back then he said that rather than simply getting faster, chips should get smarter. He was talking then about Intel's Hyperthreading technology, and suggesting that the chips of the future would be multithreaded and multi-cored, making a slice of silicon 'smarter', rather than just cranking up the clock speed.

We're now about to see a fifth-generation Pentium, which we don't expect to have more than a single core, but should at least sport some clever multithreading, or at least some improved Hyperthreading, as well as some smart 'Louis XIII' extensions. The chip will debut at 3.2 and 3.4GHz, we learned, with later chips coming in at both higher and lower clock speeds.

Prescott chips will replace P4s quite rapidly, we learned, except, perhaps, for the sore thumb, the supposed Athlon 64-buster and the "the fastest thing that would be released by any company this year", the humbled Pentium 4 Extreme Edition.

There can be little doubt that this chip was simply an AMD-buster. Indeed, when Aces prematurely posted its benchmarks for the chip, they were forced to withdraw them having discovered, they said, that the Intel spinner who passed them it forgot to mention that benchmarks should not be posted before September 23rd, coincidentally, of course AMD's 64-bit day.

Intel truely believed the P4EE would prove faster than AMD's 64-bit offerings and we can imagine the Intel Overclocking Lab guys fiddling with a 64-bit Athlon, searching for a quick way to beat it on speed. "Try whacking a few Megs of extra cache on a Xeon..? Hey guys, we might have something here."

Of course, when we published our benchmark comparison that showed a 64-bit Athlon trouncing the Extreme Edition, Intel was suffering from a bout of red faces all round. The company sought to point us at tests that showed their baby in a better light, but we were happy with the fairness of our testing and found the results quite reliable enough.

So the Athlon 64-buster failed to bust the Athlon 64. Indeed, the Pentium 4 Extreme Edition is becoming a millstone round the behemoth's neck and the spoiler tactic may already be one it regrets.

Worse, Intel announced the chip, so will have to deliver it. Customers paying three grand for a Xeon are wondering what value there is in a chip that, souped up under a different label, will cost, let's say, around a quarter of that price, and the target market - those pesky, performance-hungry gamers - will be happy to plumb for the faster solution - and one sporting 64 bits no less.

Just to add to Intel's woes, The P4 EE is likely to be quicker than the opening Prescott offerings.

Prescott will be an impressive chip. Don't get us wrong. Hyperthreading will help. Straining the silicon will give those hapless electrons more room for manoeuvre, and no doubt Lou Burns' mysterious extensions will toss something useful into the pot. It'll have a Meg of cache too. But will it compete in terms of raw speed with a P4 EE, let alone a 64-bit AMD offering? Probably not.

But the architecture will scale, of course. And the move to a 90nanometre process will help Intel cut costs and deliver the chip by the shed load.

In the meantime, the chipmaker will suffer the embarrassment of delivering a new chip that may be demonstrably slower than one it already has on the market, which in turn has already been 'trounced' by 'the competition'.

And since Intel has already been banging the "megahurtz don't matter" drum for a couple of years, without anyone really noticing, how will they explain away the performance gap?

What will be the message come Prescott day? The spinmeisters and masters of megahurtage are sitting round tables right now, trying to work it all out. There's one economic argument that always works fellas - if you can't beat 'em on speed, beat 'em on price.

[By Paul Hales]
 
K, I have another question. If I go with the AMD Athlon 64 and then when the windows XP64 comes out, what will that mean for the current video cards? Will they be able to support it?

Jeff
 
If you get an athlon 64 don't think too much of 64-bit applications. It's just to early for that. Although the speed that gets the AthlonFX with the beta version of WinXP 64-bit edition really makes me want to have it right now :D:D
 
I agree with dani_17, I think its still a little too soon for 64bit.

It would be really nice to experience a dual CPU platform. They are nice, and lots of software DOES support that, games too like Quake III, etc.
 
Indeed it may be slightly too soon for 64bit right now, but having a processor capable of performing 64bit instructions will mean your PC is much more futureproof.

Advantages of 64bit instructions can be found here:

64bit vs 32bit

Sampling from the data provided, encoding/compression seems to benefit very nicely from it:

Minigzip:
32bit Windows/32bit.exe = 9.6secs
64bit Windows/64bit.exe = 4.3secs (lower is better)

DivX:
32bit Windows/32bit.exe = 8.9secs
64bit Windows/64bit.exe = 7.6secs (again lower is better)


...nice improvements huh. :cool:

Also games are very soon coming out in 64bit format

-UT2004
-Doom3
...as far as i know, these will offer significant performance increases over their 32bit counterparts

...Cucumber
 
What 64-bits on the desktop brings you - The Inquirer

AMD HAS been banging the 64 bit drum for a bit now, especially when it comes to games. Starting with showing the beta of some Unreal flavour or another ported to the Hammer line over a year ago, they have been getting louder and louder. Sadly, while the game developers and the software support teams at AMD do understand what 64 bits can do, others don't.

The PR and advertising types are the culprits here, and part of the problem is that the general public is just as unaware. In addition to targeting the audience, they are part of it, and technically speaking, most of them breathe through their mouths. What is the problem? All those $#*&$^ ads that say 64 bits give you more FPS, or smoother gaming, or other technical minutia that are almost entirely in the realm of the graphics card anyway.

Even the AMD guide to benchmarking the Athlon64 line showed about a 0% improvement in frame rate for parts of 3DMark 2003 on a P4 vs an Athlon64. In the few, mostly older, games that show a difference, is the average user going to notice a jump from 320 to 340 FPS in Quake III? Does anyone still play Quake III? Speed is not the reason to choose a 64 bit processor for gaming.

The Athlon64 does bring a lot to the table in gaming, it is fast, but what it really buys you is worldspace. Back in the good old 8 bit days, the primitive wireframe 3Dish games that were around, and they were, had a world space that could be defined in a few large chunks. I really mean 'few'. Flying around, under the best of circumstances, you could wrap the world in a few minutes or less.

When the migration went to 32 bits, you could make the world bigger, or you could make it more detailed, but doing both was an exercise in compromises. If you didn't compromise much, the game used up memory like a Brit-hack uses free beer [Cough. Ed.]. Swapping ensues, and adequate performance becomes a distant memory.

64 bits has the potential to address this in 2 ways. The first is granularity. In a 32 bit number space, you can count to just over 4 billion, 4294967296 to be exact, or 4294967295 if you count from 0 like you really should. The 64 bit number space extends that to 18446744073709551616, which even the most casual observer will notice has a lot more digits. With the ability to map position things to the mm level, you get a worldspace of just over 4000km, not bad, but a little limiting if you are flying a plane, and woefully inadequate if you are in a spaceship needing to dock at anything other than a blobby thing with no discernable features. Jumping to 64 bit numbers for mapping, you can have both the mm accuracy, and a detailed space station. That is a huge advantage for anyone who gets annoyed by small, discrete levels that take forever to load. Think about an MMORPG where you can fit a much more detailed world into a single zone, and you are on the right track.

The other problem is memory. If you put a full world mapped to the mm level into 32 bit space, you will eat up more memory than a 32 bit CPU can address in anything larger than a split entrance ranch house map. Then comes the dreaded swapping, game pauses, and teed off players. While 2GB of RAM costs just over $300 now, that is as far as you can take a Windows box.

64 bit memory addressing lets you base memory capacity on your wallet. Even the most basic Athlon64 FX boards have 4 DIMM slots, leading to 8GB of memory if you feel like maxing your credit cards on 2GB DIMMs. No more swapping, or at least much less swapping.

At the Athlon64 launch, there were a ton of games, and a few game developers on display as well. With no offence meant to the Epic guys, I know it was a port, there was only one team who got it, and that was Crytek. Their game Far Cry was on display, and it used 64 bits right. The demo showed the usual lush island jungle with a MWABAG (Man With A Big *** Gun) running through it. Ho hum. It was very detailed, and smooth, as you would expect from a next generation game about to be released. You could see the leaves on the trees, and the level of detail showed clearly. Then they went into god mode and zoomed out. You could see the entire island, and you didn't lose any detail in the things up close. That is what 64 bit buys you when you 'get it'.

This is nothing you can't do with LoD mapping coupled with background loads, and various other cheats, but now you no longer have to. It works right, and you can put things where you want them, how you want them, and they still look right.

The down side is that they still take more memory than you can afford, but that is an economic problem, not a technical one. If I had to guess, I will go out on a limb and say that the cost of memory will come down to earth before the next three generations of graphics cards come out. They are the last bottleneck right now, a 64 bit world can hold more objects than a modern GPU can render.

Luckily, Nvidia and ATI are working hard on this, and with any luck will surprise us when the chips with names starting in four come out next year. With any luck, my Yule 2004 rant will be bitching about how those slacker TFT makers can't make a high rez monitor to save their lives.

[By Charlie Demerjian]
 
Hmm, i stand corrected.

I know for sure there are etliest 3 upcoming games with 64bit code. UT2004 for sure, and i thought Doom3 was another of them.

Anyways, general theme is that its a good thing to have 64bit compatable hardware
 
Yeah but I am well sure that you will get lots of graphs and stuff showing you how nice dual-cpu machines perform as well.

It comes down to writing different versions of the application - or a application which is aware of dual-cpus or 64-bit processors.

dual has been around longer than 64-bit - I am sure you will find lots of things that support dual as well if you looked.

I remember when the pentium came out and lots of people scrambled to spend lots of money on 75Mhz machines, when there were better chips on the way really soon. I'd wait to see how 64-bit materialises - or rather, how quickly it seems to be being adopted - later on, for now the dual cpu rig would be my recommendation. I still think its too soon for 64-bit. Remember, plenty of hype, graphs etc gets posted all over the place when new technologies like this appear. Some if it is plain and simply just there to entice you to spend $$$.
 
Dual Xeon definatly isnt worth the price for gaming - nor (currently) is the Athlon64
wait until the Athlon 64 FX 939s come out (These will be faster, have more well developed motherboards & bios's AND will NOT require regestered RAM which costs a fortune and is harder to get hold of than weapon of mass destruction)
just my thoughts

Steg

EDIT - if u do have ALOT of money then Dual Opterons would be FAST..... If u have LOTS of ALOT of money then quad opterons would be SERIOUSLY FAST ..... If u have more money to spend on a computer than an average family spends on food in a year then 8 opterons WOULD OUTPERFORM MOST MINOR SUPERCOMPUTERS
-*ahem*- please ignore my mad rantings
 
I barely even thought of gaming.

I was thinking of the computer running in general, not just exclusively games.

I agree - with strickly games, you'd get not that much in justification of your expenses, and you'd probably find the money better spent in the best, fastest 256MB graphics card, etc.
 
Yeah, but think that a futureproof machine is nonsense right now. Instead of buying now a system that will run windows xp-64 when it comes out, buy that machine when win64 gets out. It'll be cheaper and you will be more up to date for the time it comes out. Bios and motherboards need to be more mature. Support will also increase, and as steg said, there is plenty of a headache with all the diferent sockets for the athlon64's.

By the other way, dual processors are good. even if the specific game/app doesnt suppor SMP, you still get the advantage. You can unzip a 600 mb file without noticing a severe performance hit, because the load is balanced to 2 processors. Where you will notice no speed increase at all is if you are running a single app/game which doesn't support SMP.

But if you work in windows and have a bunch of programs running, even if they don't support SMP, the load is balanced to the processors.

And xeons are too expensive, motherboards that come withe them are also more expensive. Get a dual Athlon MP system and you'll save money. ECC memory is also quite expensive.

I
 
There's no such thing as a future-proof PC at all.

There's only the amount of money that you have, and what's the best way to get the furthest with it.

Part of me is still thinking that perhaps you should get a nice Pentium 4 (or even Athlon) of the fastest variety you can, plus lots of memory - say 1.5GB or 2GB even, powerful graphics card, big hard drive with cache, etc RAID controller, etc.

There's LOADS of cool things to spend your money on, and clock speed isn't everything. Sometimes, instead of being obsessed with making your PC faster, its nicer to find a way to give it a completely new capability like, say, a DVD-writer, etc.
 
....Yeah, if you have money to spend, have you considered a third option - perhaps the best single CPU system that you can get plus other upgrades as well??
 
Who wants twice the noise, twice the cost, and twice the heat of dual CPUs? One is quite enough. Two cores in one CPU is next on the horizon, and that's a much better option for home users :=).
 
I see no problem with the double cpus in terms of noise and heat... Unless you overclock them and have to put too many cooling artifacts, then your pretty much ok. Plus, if you buy a fast athlon xp or p4 system you also have the noise present...

I agree with phantasm66, give you pc new utilities, and lot's of memory
 
Yeah, get yourself other goodies like a dedicated RAID controller card, hard drives to RAID with it, memory, dvd-writer....


....There's always PLENTY to spend your money on!
 
I can't complain about any of my dual processor machines - I love them. They are incredibly responsive! I also have a 3.0C and it's quite nice as well (hyperthreading perhaps?) It's pretty hard to answer your question though without knowing (at least percentages) what you do/plan to do with your machine.
 
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